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lex_fridman_podcast_for_llm_vicuna

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[ { "from": "human", "value": "Do you think it's possible to avoid the drug of that? So now that you've achieved the Zen state, is it possible for somebody like you to use it in a way that doesn't pull you into the world pool? And so anytime there's attacks, you just," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, that's how I've tried to use it. I try to use it. Yeah, but it's not the way I wanted to use it. It's not the way it promises itself as- You wanted to have debate towards em. I wanted to actually communicate with people. I wanted to hear from the person because again, it's like being in Afghanistan, right? There are the potted cases where it's obviously good, right? It's like in Afghanistan, the girl who's getting an education that is just here. That's why we're here. That's obviously good. I have those moments on Twitter where it's like, okay, I'm hearing from a smart person who's detected an error I made in my podcast or in a book, or they've just got some great idea about something that I should spend time on. And I would never have heard from this person in any other format, and now I'm actually in dialogue with them. And it's fantastic. That's the promise of it, to actually talk to people. And so I kept getting lured back into that. No, the same or sanity preserving way of using it is just as a marketing channel. You just put your stuff out there and you don't look at what's coming back at you. And that's, I'm on other social media platforms that I don't even touch. I mean, my team posts stuff on Facebook and on Instagram." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I never even see what's on there down there. So you don't think it's possible to see something" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and not let it affect your mind? No, that's definitely possible. But the question is, and I did that for vast stretches of time, right? But then the promise of the platform is dialogue and feedback, right? So why am I, if I know for whatever reason, I'm gonna see like 99 to one awful feedback, bad faith feedback, malicious feedback. Some of it's probably even bots, and I'm not even aware of who's a person who's a bot, right? But I'm just gonna stare into this fun house mirror of acrimony and dishonesty that is going to, I mean, the reason why I got off is not because I couldn't recalibrate and find equanimity again with all the nastiness that was coming back at me and not that I couldn't ignore it for vast stretches of time. But I could see that I kept coming back to it hoping that it would be something that I could use, a real tool for communication. And I was noticing that it was insidiously changing the way I felt about people, both people I know and people I don't know, right? Like people, mutual friends of ours who are behaving in certain ways on Twitter, which just seemed insane to me. And then that became a signal I felt like I had to take into account somehow, right? You're seeing people at their worst, both friends and strangers. And I felt that it was as much as I could sort of try to recalibrate for it, I felt that I was losing touch with what was real information because people are performing, people are faking, people are not themselves, you're seeing people at their worst. And so I felt like, all right, what's being advertised to me here on a, not just a daily basis, an hourly basis or an increment sometimes of multiple times an hour. I mean, I probably check Twitter at minimum 10 times a day and maybe I was checking it a hundred times a day on some days, right? Where things were really active and I was really engaged with something. What was being delivered into my brain there was subtly false information about how dishonest and just generally unethical, totally normal people are capable of being, right? It was like, it is a funhouse mirror. I was seeing the most grotesque versions of people who I know, right? People who I know I could sit down at dinner with and they would never behave this way. And yet they were coming at me on Twitter. I mean, it was essentially turning ordinary people into sociopaths, right? It's like people are just, there are analogies that many of us have made. It's like one analogy is road rage, right? Like people behave in the confines of a car in ways that they never would if they didn't have this metal box around them and moving at speed and it's, all that becomes quite hilarious and obviously dysfunctional when they actually have to stop at the light next to the person they just flipped off and they realize, they didn't realize, they didn't understand that the person coming out of that car next to them with cauliflower ear is someone who they never would have rolled their eyes at in public because they would've taken one look at this person" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "and realized this is the last person you want to fight with. That's one of the heartbreaking things is to see, see people who I know, who I admire, who I know are friends, be everything from snarky to downright, on a mean derisive towards each other. It doesn't make any sense. Like this is the only place where I've seen people I really admire who have had a calm head about most things, like really be shitty to other people. It's probably the only place I've seen that. And I don't, I don't, I choose to maybe believe that that's not really them, there's something about the system, like if you go paintballing, if you were Jordan Peterson and!!! Yeah, you're gonna shoot your friends, yeah. Yeah, you're gonna shoot your friends, but you kind of accept that that's kind of what you're doing in this little game that you're playing." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But it's sometimes hard to remind yourself of that. It's probably Peterson and quote, go paintball. You're gonna shoot your friends, yeah. And I, I think I was guilty of that, definitely. You know, I don't think, there's nothing, I don't think I ever did anything that I really feel bad about. But yeah, it was always pushing me to the edge of snide-ness somehow. And it's just not healthy. It's not, it's not. So the reason why I deleted my Twitter account in the end was that it was obviously making me a worse person. And so, and yeah, is there some way to be on there where he's not making you a worse person? I'm sure there is, but it's given the nature of the platform and given what was coming back at me on it, the way to do that is just to basically use it as a one-way channel of communication, just marketing. And it's like, here's what I'm paying attention to, look at it if you want to, and you just push it out" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and then you don't look at what's coming back at you. I put out a call for questions on Twitter and actually quite surprising there's a lot of good, I mean, they're like, even if they're critical," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "they're like being thoughtful, which is nice." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I used it that way too, and that was what kept me hooked. But then there's also touchballs69 wrote a question." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Ask what, ask what? I can't imagine, this is part of it, but one way to solve this is," }, { "from": "human", "value": "we've got to get rid of anonymity for this. Let me ask the question, ask Sam why he sucks was the question. Yeah, that's good, well." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "One reason why I sucked was Twitter. That was, and I've since solved that problem, so touchball69, touchball69 should be happy that I suck a little bit less now that I'm off Twitter. I mean, I don't have to hear from touchballs69 on the regular." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Touchball69, I don't. The fact that you have to see that it probably can have a negative effect, just even a moderation, just to see that there is, like for me, the negative effect is slightly losing faith in the underlying kindness of humanity. Yeah, that was for me, yeah. You can also just reason your way out of it, saying that this is anonymity and this is kind of fun and it's kind of just the shit show of Twitter, it's okay," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but it does mentally affect you a little bit. Yeah, that was for me, yeah. Like I don't read too much into that kind of comment. It's like, it's just, that's just trolling and it's, I get what's, I get, I understand the fun the person is having on the other side of that. It's like. Do you though? I do, well, I do. I don't, I mean, I don't behave that way, but I do, and for all I know, that person could be 16 years old, right, so it's like." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It could be also an alt-account for Elon, I don't know." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah. No, I'm pretty sure Elon would, yeah, that's right, yeah. No, I'm pretty sure Elon would just tweet that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "under his own name at this point, under his own. Oh, man, you love each other. Okay, so the, do you think, so speaking of which, now that Elon has taken over Twitter, is there something that he could do to make this platform better? This Twitter and just social media in general, but because of the aggressive nature of his innovation that he's pushing, is there any way to make Twitter" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "a pleasant place for Sam Harris? Do you love each other? Maybe. Like in the next five years. I don't know, I think I'm agnostic as to whether or not he or anyone could make a social media platform" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that really was healthy. In the next five years. I don't know, I think. So you were just observing yourself week by week, seeing the effect that's on your mind and on how much you're actually learning" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and growing as a person, and it was negative. Yeah, and I'd also seen the negativity in other people's lives. I mean, it's obviously, I mean, he's not gonna admit it, but I think it's obviously negative for Elon, right? I mean, it's just not, that was one of the things that when I was looking into the fun house mirror, I was also seeing the fun house mirror on his side of Twitter, and it was just even more exaggerated. It's like, when I was asking myself, why is he spending his time this way? I then reflected on why, you know, why was I spending my time this way, to a lesser degree, right? And at lesser scale, and at lesser risk, frankly, right? And so, and it was just so, it's not just Twitter. I mean, this isn't part, an internet phenomenon. It's like the whole Hunter Biden mess that you explored. That was based, I mean, it was on, I was on somebody's podcast, but that was based on a clip taken from that podcast, which was highly misleading as to the general shape of my remarks on that podcast. Even, you know, I had to then do my own podcast untangling all of that, and admitting that even in the full context, I was not speaking especially well, and didn't say exactly what I thought in a way that was, would have been recognizable to anyone, you know, even someone with not functioning by a spirit of charity, but the clip was quite distinct from the podcast itself. The reality is, is that we're living in an environment now where people are so lazy, and their attention is so fragmented, that they only have time for clips. 99% of people will see a clip, and will assume there's no relevant context I need to understand what happened in that clip, right? And obviously the people who make those clips know that, right, and they're doing it quite maliciously, and in this case, the person who made that clip and subsequent clips of other podcasts was quite maliciously trying to engineer, you know, some reputational immolation for me, and being signal-boosted by Elon and other prominent people who can't take the time to watch anything other than a clip, even when it's their friend, or someone who's ostensibly their friend in that clip, right? So it's a total failure, an understandable failure of ethics, that everyone is so short on time, and they're so fucking lazy, that, and we now have these contexts in which we react so quickly to things, right? Like Twitter is inviting an instantaneous reaction to this clip, that it's just too tempting to just say something and not know what you're even commenting on, and most of the people who saw that clip don't understand what I actually think about any of these issues, and the irony is, people are gonna find clips from this conversation that are just as misleading, and they're gonna export those, and then people are gonna be dunking on those clips, and, you know, we're all living and dying by clips now," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "and it's dysfunctional. See, I think it's possible to create a platform. I think we will keep living on clips, but, you know, when I saw that clip of you talking about children and so on, just knowing that you have a sense of humor, you just went to a dark place in terms of humor. So like, I didn't even bother, and then I knew that the way clips work is that people will use it for virality's sake, but the giving a person benefit of the doubt, that's not even the right term. It's not like I was, it's really like interpreting it in the context of only your past." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The truth is you even need, like I even give Trump the benefit of the doubt when I see a clip of Trump. Because there are famous clips of Trump that are very misleading as to what he was saying in context, and I've been honest about that. Like the whole, you know, there were good people on both sides scanned all around his remarks after Charlottesville. Like the clip that got exported and got promoted by everyone, you know, left of center from Biden on down, you know, the New York Times, CNN, there's nobody that I'm aware of who has honestly, you know, apologized for what they did with that clip. That clip, he did not say what he seemed to be saying in that clip about the Nazis at Charlottesville, right? And I have always been very clear about that. So it's just, you know, even people who I think should be marginalized, and people who should be defenestrated because they really are terrible people who are doing dangerous things, and for bad reasons, I think we should be honest about what they actually meant in context, right? And this goes to anyone else we might talk about, you know, who's more, where the case is much more confusing. But yeah, so everyone's, it's just so, and then I'm sure we're going to get to AI, but, you know, the prospect of being able to manufacture clips with AI and deep fakes, and that where it's going to be hard for most people most of the time to even figure out whether they're in the presence of something real, you know, forget about being divorced from context. There was no context. I mean, that is, that's a misinformation apocalypse that is, we're right on the cusp of," }, { "from": "human", "value": "and, you know, it's terrifying. Well, it could be just a new world, like where Alice going to Wonderland, where humor is the only thing we have and it will save us. Maybe in the end, Trump's approach to social media was the right one after all." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Nothing is true and everything's absurd. Yeah, but we can't live that way. People function on the basis of what they assume is true, right, they think, you know. People have functioned. Well, to do anything. It's like, I mean, you have to know what you think is gonna happen, or you have to at least give a probabilistic waiting over the future. Otherwise, you're gonna be incapacitated by, you're not gonna, like, people want certain things, and they have to have a rational plan to get those desires gratified. And they don't wanna die, they don't want their kids to die. You tell them that there's a comet hurtling toward Earth, and they should get outside and look up, right? They're gonna do it. And if it turns out it's misinformation, you know, it's gonna matter because it comes down to, like, what medicines do you give your children, right? Like, we're gonna be manufacturing fake journal articles. I mean, this is, I'm sure someone's using chat GPT for this, you know, as we speak. And if it's not credible, if it's not persuasive now to most people, I mean, honestly, I don't think we're gonna, I'll be amazed if it's a year before we can actually create journal articles that would take, you know, a PhD to debunk that are completely fake. And there are people who are celebrating this kind of, you know, coming cataclysm, but it's just, there are the people who don't have anything to lose who are celebrating it or just are so confused that they just don't even know what's at stake. And then there are the people who have met, the few people who we could count on a few hands who have managed to insulate themselves or at least imagine they've insulated themselves from the downside here enough that they're not implicated in the great unraveling" }, { "from": "human", "value": "we are witnessing or could witness. The shaking up of what is true. So actually that returns us to experts. Do you think experts can save us? Is there such thing as expertise and experts at something?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How do you know if you've achieved it? I think it's important to acknowledge upfront that there's something paradoxical about how we relate to authority, especially within science. And I don't think that paradox is going away and it's just, it doesn't have to be confusing. It's just, and it's not truly a paradox. It's just like there are different moments in time. So to a thought, it is true to say that within science or within rationality generally, I mean, whenever you're having a fact-based discussion about anything, it is true to say that the truth or falsity of a statement does not even slightly depend on the credentials of the person making the statement. So it doesn't matter if you're a Nobel laureate, you can be wrong. The thing you could, the last sentence you spoke could be total bullshit. And it's also possible for someone who's deeply uninformed to be right about something or to be right for the wrong reasons, or someone just gets lucky or someone, and there are middling cases where you have like a backyard astronomer who's got no credentials, but he just loves astronomy and he's got a telescope and he's spent a lot of time looking at the night sky and he discovers a comet that no one else has seen, not even the professional expert astronomers, and my God, I think that happens less and less now, but some version of that keeps happening and it may always keep happening in every area of expertise, right? So it's true that truth is orthogonal to the reputational concerns we have among apes who are talking about the truth. But it is also true that most of the time, real experts are much more reliable than frauds or people who are not experts, right? And expertise really is a thing, right? And when you're flying an airplane in a storm, you don't want just randos come into the cockpit saying, listen, I've got a new idea about how we should tweak these controls, right? You want someone who's a trained pilot and that training gave them something, right? Gave them a set of competences and intuitions and they know what all those dials and switches do, right? And I don't, right? I shouldn't be flying that plane, you know? So when things really matter, you know, and putting this at 30,000 feet in a storm sharpens this up, we want real experts to be in charge, right? And we are at 30,000 feet a lot of the time on a lot of issues, right? And whether they're public health issues, whether it's a geopolitical emergency like Ukraine, whether it be climate change, I mean, just pick your topic. There are real problems and the clock is rather often ticking and their solutions are non-obvious, right? And so expertise is a thing and deferring to experts much of the time makes a lot of sense. At minimum, it prevents spectacular errors of incompetence and just, you know, foolhardiness. But even in the case of where you're talking about someone, I mean, people like ourselves who are like, we're well-educated, we're not the worst possible candidates for the Dunning-Kruger effect. When we're going into a new area where we're not experts, we're fairly alert to the possibility that we don't, you know, it's not as simple as things seem at first and we don't, you know, we don't know how our tools translate to this new area. We can be fairly circumspect, but we're also, because we're well-educated, and we're pretty quick studies, we can learn a lot of things pretty fast and we can begin to play a language game that sounds fairly expert, right? And in that case, the invitation to do your own research, is when times are good, I view as an invitation to waste your time pointlessly, right, when times are good. Now, the truth is times are not all that good, right? And we have the ongoing public display of failures of expertise. We have experts who are obviously corrupted by bad incentives. We've got experts who, you know, perversely won't admit they were wrong when they, in fact, you know, are demonstrated to be wrong. We've got institutions that have been captured by political ideology that's not truth-tracking. I mean, this whole woke encroachment into really every place, you know, whether it's universities or science journals or government or, I mean, it's just like that is, that has been genuinely deranging. So there's a lot going on where experts and the very concept of expertise has seemed to discredit itself, but the reality is, is that there is a massive difference when anything matters, when there's anything to know about anything. There is a massive difference most of the time between someone who's really done the work to understand that domain, and someone who hasn't. And if I get sick or someone close to me gets sick, you know, I have a PhD in neuroscience, right? So I can read a medical journal article and understand a lot of it, right? And so I'm just fairly conversant with medical terminology. And I understand his methods, and I'm alert to the difference because in neuroscience I've spent hours and hours in journal clubs diagnosing, analyzing the difference between good and bad studies. I'm alert to the difference between good and bad studies in medical journals. I understand that bad studies can get published, et cetera, and experiments can be poorly designed. I'm alert to all of those things. But when I get sick or when someone close to me gets sick, I don't pretend to be a doctor, right? I've got no clinical experience. I don't go down the rabbit hole on Google for days at a stretch trying to become a doctor, much less a specialist in the domain of problem that has been visited upon me or my family, right? So if someone close to me gets cancer, I don't pretend to be an oncologist. I don't go out and start reading, you know, in journals of oncology and try to really get up to speed as an oncologist because one is a bad and very likely misleading use of my time, right? And if I had a lot of runway, if I decide, okay, it's really important for me to know everything I can. At this point, I know someone's gonna get cancer. I may not go back to school and become an oncologist, but what I wanna do is I wanna know everything I can know about cancer, right? So I'm gonna take the next four years and spend most of my time on cancer. Okay, I could do that, right? I still think that's a waste of my time. I still think at the end of, even at the end of those four years, I'm not gonna be the best person to form intuitions about what to do in the face of the next cancer that I have to confront. I'm still gonna want a better oncologist than I've become to tell me what he or she would do if they were in my shoes or in the shoes a family member, I'm not advocating a blind trust and authority, like if you get cancer and you're talking to one oncologist and they're recommending some course of treatment, by all means get a second opinion, get a third opinion, but it matters that those opinions are coming from real experts and not from Robert Kennedy Jr. who's telling you that you got it because you got a vaccine, right? So it's just, we're swimming in a sea of misinformation where you've got people who are moving the opinions of millions of others who should not have an opinion on these topics, like there is no scenario in which you should be getting your opinion about vaccine safety or climate change or the war in Ukraine or anything else that we might wanna talk about from Candace Owens, right? It's just like, she's not a relevant expert on any of those topics. And what's more, she doesn't seem to care, right? And she's living in a culture that has amplified that not caring into a business model and an effective business model, right? So it's just, and there's something very trumping about all that or like that's the problem is the culture, it's not these specific individuals. So the paradox here is that expertise is a real thing and we defer to it a lot as a labor saving device and it's just based on the reality that it's very hard to be a polymath, right? And specialization is a thing, right? And so there are people who specialize in a very narrow topic, they know more about that topic than the next guy, no matter how smart that guy or gal is. And that those differences matter. But it's also true that when you're talking about facts, sometimes the best experts are wrong. The scientific consensus is wrong. You get a sea change in the thinking of a whole field because one person who's an outlier for whatever reason decides, okay, I'm gonna prove this point and they prove it, right? So somebody like the doctor who believe that stomach ulcers were not due to stress but were due to H. pylori infections, right? So he just drank a vial of H. pylori bacteria and proved and quickly got an ulcer and convinced the field that at minimum H. pylori was involved in that process. Okay, so yes, everyone was wrong. That doesn't disprove the reality of expertise. It doesn't disprove the utility of relying on experts most of the time, especially in an emergency, especially when the clock is ticking, especially when you're in this particular cockpit and you only have one chance to land this plane, right? You want the real pilot at the controls." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "But there's just a few things to say. So one, you mentioned this example with cancer and doing your own research. There's several things that are different about our particular time in history. One, doing your own research has become more and more effective because the internet made information a lot more accessible. So you can read a lot of different meta-analyses. You can read blog posts that describe to you exactly the flaws and the different papers that make up the meta-analysis. And you can read a lot of those blog posts that are conflicting with each other and you can take that information in in a short amount of time, you can start to make good faith interpretations. For example, I don't know, I don't want to overstate things but if you suffer from depression, for example, then you could go to an expert, a doctor that prescribes you some medication, but you could also challenge some of those ideas in seeing what are the different medications, what are the different side effects, what are the different solutions to depression, all that kind of stuff. And I think depression is just a really difficult problem. That's very, I don't want to again state incorrect things, but I think there's a lot of variability of what depression really means. So being introspective about the type of depression you have and the different possible solutions you have, just doing your own research as a first step before approaching a doctor or as you have multiple opinions could be very beneficial in that case. Now that's depression, that's something that's been studied for a very long time with a new pandemic that's affecting everybody. With the airplane, I would equate it to like 911 or something, like the new emergency just happened and everybody, every expert in the world is publishing on it and talking about it. So doing your own research there could be exceptionally effective in asking questions. And then there's a difference between experts, virologists, and it's actually a good question, who is exactly the expert in a pandemic? But there's the actual experts doing the research and publishing stuff, and then there's the communicators of that expertise. And the question is if the communicators are flawed to a degree where doing your own research is actually the more effective way to figure out policies and solutions, because you're not competing with the experts, you're competing with the communicators of expertise. That could be WHO, CDC in the case of the pandemic, or politicians, or political type of science figures like Anthony Fauci. There's a question there of the effectiveness of doing your own research in that context. And the competing forces there, incentives that you've mentioned, is you can become quite popular by being contrarian, by saying everybody's lying to you, all the authorities are lying to you, all the institutions are lying to you. So those are the waters you're swimming in, but I think doing your own research" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in that kind of context could be quite effective. Let me be clear. I'm not saying you shouldn't do any research. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be informed about an issue. I'm not saying you shouldn't read articles on whatever the topic is. And yes, if I got cancer, or someone close to me got cancer, I probably would read more about cancer than I've read thus far about cancer, and I've read some. So I'm not making a virtue of ignorance and a blind obedience to authority. And again, I recognize that authorities can discredit themselves or they can be wrong. They can be wrong even when there's no discredit. There's a lot we don't understand about the nature of the world. But still this vast gulf between truly informed opinion and bullshit exists. It always exists. And conspiracy thinking is rather often, most of the time, a species of bullshit, but it's not always wrong. There are real conspiracies and there really are just awful corruptions of born of bad incentives within our scientific processes, within institutions. And again, we've mentioned a lot of these things in passing, but what woke political ideology did to scientific communication during the pandemic was awful. And it was really corrosive of public trust, especially on the right, for understandable reasons. It was crazy, some of the things that were being said and still is. And these cases are all different. You take depression. We just don't know enough about depression for anyone to be that confident about anything. And there are many different modalities in which to interact with it is a problem, right? So there's, yes, pharmaceuticals have whatever promise they have, but there's certainly reason to be concerned that they don't work well for everybody. And it's obvious they don't work well for everybody, but they do work for some people. But again, depression is a multifactorial problem and there are different levels at which to influence it. And there are things like meditation, there are things like just life changes and one of the perverse things about depression is that when you're depressed, all of the things that would be good for you to do are precisely the things you don't wanna do. You don't have any energy to socialize. You don't wanna get things done. You don't wanna exercise. And all of those things, if you got those up and running, they do make you feel better in the aggregate. But the reality is, there are clinical level depressions that are so bad that it's just, we just don't have good tools for them. And it's not enough to tell you, there's no life change. Someone's gonna embrace that it's going to be an obvious remedy for that. I mean, pandemics are obviously a complicated problem, but I would consider it much simpler than depression in terms of what's on the menu to be chosen among the various choices. And the logic by which you would make those choices, yeah. So it's like, we have a virus, we have a new virus. It's some version of bad, you know, it's human transmissible. We're still catching up. We're catching up to every aspect of it. We don't know how it spreads. We don't know how effective masks are. Well, at a certain point we knew it was respiratory, but we knew, but yeah, whether it's spread by fomites or like all that, we were confused about a lot of things and we're still confused. It's been a moving target this whole time and it's been changing this whole time. And our responses to it have been, you know, we ramped up the vaccines as quickly as we could, but, you know, too quick for some, not as quick enough for others. We could have done human challenge trials and got them out more quickly with better data. And I think that's something we should probably look at in the future because, you know, to my eye, that would make ethical sense to do challenge trials." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "But, yeah, and so much of my concern about COVID," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, many people are confused about my concern about COVID. My concern about COVID has for much of the time not been narrowly focused on COVID itself and how dangerous I perceive COVID to be as a illness. It has been for the longest time, even more a concern about our ability to respond to a truly scary pathogen next time. Like for, you know, outside those initial months, give me the first six months to be quite worried about COVID and the unraveling of society. But- And a supply of toilet paper. You want to secure a steady supply of toilet paper. But beyond that initial period, when we had a sense of what we were dealing with and we had every hope that the vaccines are actually going to work and we knew we were getting those vaccines in short order, right? Beyond that, and we knew just how dangerous the illness was and how dangerous it wasn't. For years now, I've just been worrying about this as a failed dress rehearsal for something much worse, right? I think what we proved to ourselves at this moment in history is that we have built informational tools that we do not know how to use and we have made ourselves, we've basically enrolled all of human society into a psychological experiment that is deranging us and making it virtually impossible to solve coordination problems that we absolutely have to solve next time" }, { "from": "human", "value": "when things are worse. Do you understand who's at fault for the way this unraveled? The way we didn't seem to have the distrust in institutions and the institution of science that grew like seemingly exponentially or got revealed through this process," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "who's at fault here and what's to fix? So much blame to go around, but so much of it is not a matter of bad people conspiring to do bad things. It's a matter of incompetence and misaligned incentives and just ordinary, just plain vanilla dysfunction." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But my problem was that people like you, people like Brett Weinstein, people like that I look to for reasonable, difficult conversations on difficult topics have a little bit lost their mind, became emotional and dogmatic in style of conversation, perhaps not in the depth of actual ideas, but there, I tweet something of that nature and not about you, but just, it feels like the pandemic made people really more emotional than before. And then Kimball Musk responded, I think something I think you probably would agree with, maybe not. I think it was the combo of Trump and the pandemic. Trump triggered the far left to be way more active than they could have been without him. And then the pandemic handed big government, nanny state lefties, a huge platform on a silver platter," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "a one-two punch and here we are. I would agree with some of that. I'm not sure how much to read into the nanny state concept," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but yet like basically got people on the far left really activated. And then gave control to, I don't know if you say nanny state, but just control to government that when executed poorly" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "has created a complete distrust in government. Yeah, my fear is that there was gonna be that complete distrust anyway, given the nature of the information space, given the level of conspiracy thinking, given the gaming of these tools by an anti-vax cult. I mean, there really is an anti-vax cult that just ramped up its energy during this moment. But it's a small one. It's not to say that every concern about vaccines is a species of, it was born of misinformation or born of this cult," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but there is a cult that is just, you know." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But it's a small one. And the core of Trumpism is a cult. I mean, QAnon is a cult. And so there's a lot of line and there's a lot of confusion. You know, there are, it's almost so impossible to exaggerate how confused some people are and how fully their lives are organized around that confusion. I mean, there are people who think that the world's being run by pedophile cannibals and that Tom Hanks and Oprah Winfrey and Michelle Obama are among those cannibals. I mean, like they're adjacent to the pure crazy. There's the semi crazy. And adjacent to the semi crazy, there's the grifting opportunist asshole. And the layers of bad faith are hard to fully diagnose, but the problem is all of this is getting signal boosted by an outrage machine that is preferentially spreading misinformation. It has a business model that is guaranteeing, that is preferentially sharing misinformation." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And actually just in a small tangent, how do you defend yourself against the claim that you're a pedophile cannibal? It's difficult. Here's the case I would make, because I don't think you can use the reason. I think you have to use empathy." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You have to make it. But part of it, I mean, I find it very difficult to believe that anyone believes these things. I mean, I think that there's, I'm sure there's some number of people who are just pretending to believe these things because it's just, again, this is sort of like the 4chanification of everything. It's just Pepe the frog, right? None of this is what it seems. They're not signaling an alliance with white supremacy or neo-naziism, but they're not doing it. They just don't fucking care. It's just cynicism overflowing its banks. It's just fun to wind up the normies. Like look at all the normies who don't understand that a green frog is just a green frog, even when it isn't just a green frog. Like it's just gumming up everyone's cognitive bandwidth with bullshit, right? I get that that's fun if you're a teenager and you just want to vandalize our new sphere. But at a certain point, we have to recognize that real questions of human welfare are in play, right? There's like, there are really, there are wars getting fought or not fought, and there's a pandemic raging, and there's medicine to take or not take. But I mean, to come back to this issue of COVID, I don't think I got so out of balance around COVID. I think people are quite confused about what I was concerned about. I mean, yes, there was a period where I was crazy because anyone who was taking it seriously was crazy because they had no idea what was going on. And so it's like, yes, I was wiping down packages with alcohol wipes, right? Because people thought it was transmissible by touch, right? That's so, and then when we realized that was no longer the case, I stopped doing that. But so again, it was a moving target and a lot of things we did in hindsight around masking and school closures looked fairly dysfunctional, right?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "But unnecessary. I think the criticism that people would say about your talking about COVID, maybe you can correct me, but you were skeptic or you were against skepticism of the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. So people who get nervous about the vaccine but don't fall into the usual anti-vax camp, which I think there was a significant enough number. They're asking, they're getting nervous. I mean, especially after the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, I too was nervous about anything where a lot of money could be made. And you just see how the people who are greedy, they come to the surface all of a sudden. And a lot of them that run institutions actually really good human beings. I know a lot of them, but it's hard to know how those two combined together when there's hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars to be made. And so that skepticism, I guess the sense was" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you weren't open enough to the skepticism. I understand that people have that sense. I'll tell you how I thought about it and think about it. One, again, it was a moving target. So there was a point in the timeline where it was totally rational to expect that the vaccines were both working, both they were reasonably safe and that COVID was reasonably dangerous and that the trade-off for basically everyone was it was rational to get vaccinated. Given the level of testing and how many people had been vaccinated before you, given what we were seeing with COVID, that that was a forced choice. You're eventually gonna get COVID and the question is, do you wanna be vaccinated when you do? There was a period where that forced choice, where it was just obviously reasonable to get vaccinated, especially because there was every reason to expect that while it wasn't a perfectly sterilizing vaccine, it was going to knock down transmission a lot and that matters. And so it wasn't just a personal choice. You were actually being a good citizen when you decided to run whatever risk you were gonna run to get vaccinated because there are people in our society who actually can't get vaccinated. I mean, I know people who can't take any vaccines. They're so allergic to, I mean, they in their own person seem to justify all of the fears of the anti-vax cult. I mean, it's like they're the kind of person who Robert Kennedy Jr. can point to and say, see, vaccines will fucking kill you, right? Because of the experience and we're still, I know people who have kids who fit that description, right? So we should all feel a civic responsibility to be vaccinated against egregiously awful and transmissible diseases for which we have relatively safe vaccines" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to keep those sorts of people safe. And there was a period of time when it was thought that the vaccine could stop transmission." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yes, yes. And so again, all of this has begun to shift. I don't think it has shifted as much as Brett Weinstein thinks it's shifted, but yes, there are safety concerns around the mRNA vaccines, especially for young men, right? As far as I know, that's the purview of actual heightened concern. But also there's now a lot of natural immunity out there. Basically everyone who was gonna get vaccinated has gotten vaccinated. The virus has evolved to the point in this context where it seems less dangerous. Again, I'm going more on the seemings than on research that I've done at this point, but I'm certainly less worried about getting COVID. I've had it once, I've been vaccinated. I've like, it's like, so you ask me now, how do I feel about getting the next booster? I don't know that I'm going to get the next booster, right? So I was somebody who was waiting in line at four in the morning, hoping to get some overflow vaccine when it was first available. And that was at that point, given what we knew, given what I thought I knew based on the best sources I could consult and based on anecdotes that were too vivid to ignore, both data and personal experience, it was totally rational for me to wanna get that vaccine as soon as I could. And now I think it's totally rational for me to do a different kind of cost benefit analysis and wonder, listen, do I really need to get a booster? Right, you know, like how many of these boosters am I gonna get for the rest of my life? Really, and how safe is the mRNA vaccine for a man of my age, right? And do I need to be worried about myocarditis? All of that is completely rational to talk about now. My concern is that at every point along the way, I was the wrong person and Brett Weinstein was the wrong person and there's many other people I could add to this list to have strong opinions about any of this stuff." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I just disagree with that, I think, yes, in theory, I agree 100%, but I feel like experts failed at communicating, not at doing- They did. And I just feel like you and Brett Weinstein actually have the tools with the internet, given the engine you have in your brain of thinking for months at a time deeply about the problems that face our world, that you actually have the tools to do pretty good thinking here." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The problem I have with experts- But there would be deference to experts" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and pseudo experts behind all of that. Well, the papers, you would stand on the shoulders of giants, but you can surf those shoulders better than the giants themselves." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, but I knew we were gonna disagree about that. Like I saw his podcast where he brought on these experts who had, many of them had the right credentials, but for a variety of reasons, they didn't pass the smell test for me. I mean, one larger problem, and this goes back to the problem of how we rely on authority in science, is that you can always find a PhD or an MD to champion any crackpot idea, right? I mean, it is amazing, but you could find PhDs and MDs who would sit up there in front of Congress and say that they thought smoking was not addictive, or that it was not harmful to, there was no direct link between smoking and lung cancer. You can always find those people, and you can end, but some of the people Brett found were people who had obvious tells, to my point of view, to my eye, and I saw them on, some of the same people were on Rogan's podcast, right? And it's hard, because if a person does have the right credentials, and they're not saying something floridly mistaken, and we're talking about something where it's their genuine unknowns, right? Like, how much do we know about the safety of these vaccines, right? It's, at that point, not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, we have no long-term data on mRNA vaccines, but to confidently say that millions of people are gonna die because of these vaccines, and to confidently say that ivermectin is a panacea, right? ivermectin is the thing that prevents COVID, right? There was no good reason to say either of those things at that moment, and that's, and so given that that's where Brett was, I felt like there was just no, there was nothing to debate. We're both the wrong people that would be getting into the weeds on this. We're both gonna defer to our chosen experts. His experts look like crackpots to me, and, or at least the ones who are most vociferous" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "on those most, on those edgiest points that seem most. And your experts seem like, what is the term," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "mass hysteria, I forgot the term. Well, no, but it's like, it's like with climate science. I mean, this old, it's received as a canard for in half our society now, but the claim that 97% of climate scientists agree that human caused climate change is a thing, right? So do you go with the 97% most of the time, or do you go with the 3% most of the time? It's obvious you go with the 97% most of the time for anything that matters. It's not to say that the 3% are always wrong. Again, there are, things get overturned, and yes, as you say, and I've spent much more time worrying about this on my podcast than I've spent worrying about COVID, our institutions have lost trust for good reason, right? And it's an open question whether we can actually get things done with this level of transparency and pseudo-transparency given our information ecosystems. Like, can we fight a war, really fight a war that we may have to fight, like the next Nazis? Can we fight that war when everyone with an iPhone is showing just how awful it is that little girls get blown up when we drop our bombs, right? Like, could we as a society do what we might have to do to actually get necessary things done when we're living in this panopticon of just, everyone's a journalist, right? Everyone's a scientist, everyone's an expert, everyone's got direct contact with the facts" }, { "from": "human", "value": "or some, or a semblance of the facts, I don't know. I think yes, and I think voices like yours are exceptionally important, and I think there's certain signals you send in your ability to steal me on the other side in your empathy, essentially. So that's the fight, that's the mechanism by which you resist the dogmatism of this binary thinking. And then if you become a trusted person that's able to consider the other side, then people would listen to you as the aggregator, as the communicator of expertise. Because the virologists haven't been able to be good communicators. I still to this day don't really know what is the, what am I supposed to think about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines today? As it stands today, what are we supposed to think? What are we supposed to think about testing? What are we supposed to think about the effectiveness of masks or lockdowns? Where's the great communicators on this topic that consider all the other conspiracy theories, all the communication that's out there, and actually aggregating it together and be able to say this is actually what's most likely the truth? And also some of that has to do with humility, epistemic humility, knowing that you can't really know for sure. just like with depression, you can't really know for sure. I'm not seeing those communications being effectively done," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "even still today. Well, the jury is still out on some of it. And again, it's a moving target. And some of it, I mean, it's complicated. Some of it's a self-fulfilling dynamic where like, so like lockdowns, in theory lockdowns, a lockdown would work if we could only do it, but we can't really do it. And there's a lot of people who won't do it because they're convinced that it's, this is the totalitarian boot, finally on the neck of the good people who are always having their interests introduced by the elites, right? So like this is, if you have enough people who think the lockdown for any reason in the face of any conceivable illness, right? Is just code for the new world order coming to fuck you over and take your guns, right? Okay, you have a society that is now immune to reason, right? Because there are absolutely certain pathogens that we should lock down for next time, right? And it was completely rational in the beginning of this thing to lockdown given, to attempt to lockdown, we never really locked down. To attempt some semblance of a lockdown, just to quote, bend the curve, to spare our healthcare system given what we were seeing happening in Italy, right? Like that moment was, it was not hard to navigate, at least in my view, it was obvious at the time, in retrospect, my views on that haven't changed, except for the fact that I recognize maybe it's just impossible given the nature of people's response to that kind of demand, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "We live in a society that's just not gonna lock down." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Unless the pandemic is much more deadly. Right, so that's a point I made, which, you know, was maliciously clipped out from some other podcast where someone's trying to make it look like I wanna see children die. Look, there's a pity more children didn't die from COVID, right? This is actually the same person who, and that's the other thing that got so poisoned here. It's like that person, this psychopath or effective psychopath who's creating these clips of me on podcasts, the second clip of me seeming to say that I wish more children died during COVID, but it was so clear in context what I was saying that even the clip betrayed the context, so it didn't actually work. This psycho, and again, I don't know whether he actually is a psychopath, but he's behaving like one because of the incentives of Twitter. This is somebody who Brett Signal Boosted as a very reliable source of information, right? He kept retweeting this guy at me, against me, right? And this guy, at one glance, I knew how unreliable this guy was, right? But I think I, I'm not at all set. One thing I think I did wrong, one thing that I do regret, one thing I have not sorted out for myself is how to navigate the professional and personal pressure that gets applied at this moment where you have a friend or an acquaintance or someone you know who's behaving badly in public or behaving badly, behaving in a way that you think is bad in public. And they have a public platform where they're influencing a lot of people, and you have your own public platform where you're constantly getting asked to comment on what this friend or acquaintance or colleague is doing. I haven't known what I think is ethically right about the choices that seem forced on us at moments like this. So like, I've criticized you in public about your interview with Kanye. Now in the case, in that case, I reached out to you in private first and told you exactly what I thought. And then when I was gonna get asked in public or when I was touching that topic on my podcast, I more or less said the same thing that I said to you in private, right? Now that was how I navigated that moment. I did the same thing with Elon, at least at the beginning. This, we have maintained good vibes" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "which is not what I would say about Elon, but. I don't think, I disagree with you because good vibes in the moment, there's a deep core of good vibes that persist through time between you and Elon. And I would argue probably between" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "some of the other folks you mentioned. I think with Brett, I failed to reach out in private to the degree that I should have. And we never really had, we had tried to set up a conversation in private that never happened, but there was some communication, but it would have been much better for me to have made more of an effort in private than I did before it spilled out into public." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And I would say that's true with other people as well. What kind of interaction in private do you think you should have with Brett? Because my case would be beforehand and now still. The case I would like in this part of the criticism you sent my way, maybe it's useful to go to that direction. Actually, let's go to that direction because I think I disagree with your criticism as you stated publicly, but this is- You're talking about Your beauty with Kanye. The thing you criticized me for is actually the right thing to do with Brett. Okay, you said Lex could have spoken with Kanye in such a way as they have produced a useful document. He didn't do that because he has a fairly naive philosophy" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "about the power of love. You're talking about your beauty with Kanye. Let's see, if you can maintain that philosophy in the presence of his criticism." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Let's go. No, it's beautiful. He seemed to think that if he just got through the minefield to the end of the conversation, where the two of them still were feeling good about one another and they can hug it out, that would be by definition a success. So let me make the case for this power of love philosophy, right? And first of all, I love you, Sam. You're still an inspiration and somebody I deeply admire. Okay. Back at you. To me, in the case of Kanye, it's not only that you get to the conversation and have hugs, it's that the display that you're willing to do that has power. So even if it doesn't end in hugging, the actual, the turning the other cheek, the act of turning the other cheek itself communicates both to Kanye later and to the rest of the world that we should have empathy and compassion towards each other. There's power to that. Maybe that is naive, but I believe in the power of that. So it's not that I'm trying to convince Kanye that some of his ideas are wrong, but I'm trying to illustrate that just the act of listening and truly trying to understand the human being, that opens people's minds to actually questioning their own beliefs more. It takes them out of the dogmatism, deescalates the kind of dogmatism that I've been seeing. So in that sense, I would say the power of love is the philosophy you might apply to Brett because the right conversation you have in private is not about, hey, listen, the experts you're talking to, they seem credentialed, but they're not actually as credentialed as they're illustrating, they're not grounding their findings in actual meta-analyses and papers and so on, like making a strong case, like, what are you doing? This is gonna get a lot of people in trouble. But instead, just saying, like being a friend in the dumbest of ways, being like respectful, sending love their way, and just having a conversation outside of all of this, like basically showing that like, removing the emotional attachment to this debate, even though you are very emotionally attached because in the case of COVID specifically, there is a very large number of lives at stake, but removing all of that" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and remembering that you have a friendship. Yeah, well, so I think these are highly non-analogous cases, right, so your conversation with Kanye misfired from my point of view for a very different reason, and it has to do with Kanye. I mean, so Kanye, I don't know, I've never met Kanye, so obviously I don't know him, but I think he's either obviously in the midst of a mental health crisis, or he's a colossal asshole, or both. I mean, actually those aren't mutually exclusive, so one of three possibilities. He's either mentally ill, he's an asshole," }, { "from": "human", "value": "or he's mentally ill and an asshole. I think all three of those possibilities are possible for the both of us as well." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, no, I would argue none of those are likely for either of us, but not to say we don't have our moments, but either. So the reason not to talk to Kanye, I think you should have had the conversation you had with him in private. That's great, and I've got no criticism of what you said had it been in private. In public, I just thought you're not doing him a favor. If he's mentally ill, right? If he's in the middle of a manic episode or I'm not a clinician, but I've heard it said of him that he is bipolar, you're not doing him a favor sticking a mic in front of him and letting him go off on the Jews or anything else, right? We know what he thought about the Jews. We know that there's not much illumination that's gonna come from him on that topic. And if it is a symptom of his mental illness that he thinks these things, well then, you're not doing him a favor making that even more public. If he's just an asshole and he's just an anti-Semite, an ordinary garden variety anti-Semite, well then there's also not much to say unless you're really gonna dig in and kick the shit out of him in public. And I'm saying you can do that with love. I mean, that's the other thing here is that I don't agree that compassion and love always have this patient embracing acquiescent face, right? They don't always feel good to the recipient, right? There is a sort of wisdom that you can wield compassionately in moments like that where someone's full of shit and you just make it absolutely clear to them to your audience that they're full of shit. And there's no hatred being communicated. In fact, you could just, it's like, listen, I'm gonna do everyone a favor right now and just take your foot out of your mouth. And the truth is, I just wouldn't have aired the conversation. I just don't think it was a document that had to get out there. This is not a signal you're likely to get from your audience. I get that many people in your audience thought, oh my God, that's awesome. You're talking to Kanye and you're doing it in Lex style, where it's just love, and you're not treating him like a pariah, and you're holding this tension between he's this creative genius whose work we love, and yet he's having this moment that's so painful, and what a tightrope walk, and I get that maybe 90% of your audience saw it that way. They're still wrong, and I still think that was on balance not a good thing" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "to put out into the world of work. You don't think it opens up the mind and heart" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of people that listen to that, just seeing a person? If it's opening up in the wrong direction where just gale force nonsense is coming in, right? I think we should have an open mind and an open heart, but there's some clear things here that we have to keep in view. One is the mental illness component is its own thing. I don't pretend to understand what's going on with him, but insofar as that's the reason he's saying what he's saying, do not put this guy on camera and let people see it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, but I had to, sorry, in that point real quick, I had a bunch of conversation with him offline, and I didn't get a sense of mental illness. That's why I chose to sit down," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and I didn't get it, I mean, mental illness is such a. Okay, but when he shows up in a gimp hood on Alex Jones' podcast, I mean, either that's more genius performance in his world," }, { "from": "human", "value": "or he's unraveling further. I wouldn't put that under mental illness. We have to, I think there's another conversation to be had about how we treat artists. Right. Because they're weirdos. They're very, I mean, taking words from Kanye as if he's like Christopher Hitchens or something like that, like very eloquent, researched, written many books on history, on politics, on geopolitics, on psychology, Kanye didn't do any of that. He's an artist just spouting off. And so there's a different style of conversation and a different way to treat the words that are coming out of the spot." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Let's leave the mental illness aside. So if we're gonna say that there's no reason to think he's mentally ill, and this is just him being creative and brilliant and opinionated, well then that falls into the asshole bucket for me. It's like then he's someone, and honestly, the most offensive thing about him in that interview, from my point of view, is not the antisemitism, which we can talk about, because I think there are problems just letting him spread those memes as well. But the most offensive thing is just how delusionally egocentric he is, or was coming off in that interview and in others. Like he has an estimation of himself as this omnibus genius, not only to rival Shakespeare, to exceed Shakespeare, right? I mean, he's like, he is the greatest mind that has ever walked among us. And he's more or less explicit on that point, and yet he manages to talk for hours without saying anything actually interesting or insightful or factually illuminating, right? So it's complete delusion of a very Trumpian sort. It's like when Trump says he's a genius who understands everything, but nobody takes him seriously, and one wonders whether Trump takes himself seriously, Kanye seems to believe his own press. He actually thinks he's just a colossus, and he may be a great musician. It's certainly not my wheelhouse to compare him to any other musicians, but one thing that's patently obvious from your conversation is he's not who he thinks he is intellectually or ethically or in any other relevant way. And so when you couple that to the antisemitism he was spreading, which was genuinely noxious and ill-considered and has potential knock-on effects in the black community. I mean, there's an ambient level of antisemitism in the black community that is worth worrying about and talking about anyway. There's a bunch of guys playing the knockout game in Brooklyn, just punching Orthodox Jews in the face. And I think letting Kanye air his antisemitism, that publicly, only raises the likelihood of that rather than to me." }, { "from": "human", "value": "There's an antisemitism. I don't know. So let me say just a couple of things. So one, my belief at the time was it doesn't, it decreases it. Showing empathy while pushing back decreases the likelihood of that. It does, it might on the surface look like it's increasing it, but that's simply because the antisemitism or the hatred in general is brought to the surface and that people talk about it. But I should also say that you're one of the only people that wrote to me privately criticizing me. And like out of the people I really respect and admire, and that was really valuable that I had to, painful, because I had to think through it for a while. I'm still, it still haunts me because the other kind of criticism I got a lot of people basically said things towards me based on who I am that they hate me. You mean antisemitic things or? Antisemitic things, I just hate the word antisemitic." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's like racist. But here's the reality. So I'm someone, so I'm Jewish, although obviously not religious. I have never taken, I've been a student of the Holocaust, obviously I know a lot about that and there's reason to be a student of the Holocaust. But in my lifetime and in my experience, I have never taken antisemitism very seriously. I have not worried about it. I have not made a thing of it. I've done exactly one podcast on it. I had Barry Weiss on my podcast when her book came out. But it really is a thing and it's something we have to keep an eye on societally because it's a unique kind of hatred, right? It's unique in that it seems, it's knit together with, it's not just ordinary racism, it's knit together with lots of conspiracy theories that never seem to die out. It can by turns equally animate the left and the right politically. I mean, what's so perverse about antisemitism, look in the American context, with the far right, with white supremacists, Jews aren't considered white. So they hate us in the same spirit in which they hate black people or brown people or anyone who's not white. But on the left, Jews are considered extra white. I mean, we're the extra beneficiaries of white privilege, right? And in the black community, that is often the case, right? We're a minority that has thrived and it seems to stand as a counterpoint to all of the problems that other minorities suffer, in particular, African Americans in the American context. And yeah, Asians are now getting a little bit of this, like the model minority issue. But Jews have had this going on for centuries and millennia and it never seems to go away. And again, this is something that I've never focused on, but this has been at a slow boil for as long as we've been alive and there's no guarantee it can't suddenly become much, much uglier than we have any reason to expect it to become, even in our society. And so there's kind of a special concern at moments like that where you have an immensely influential person in a community who already has a checkered history with respect to their own beliefs about the Jews and the conspiracies and all the rest. And he's just messaging, not especially fully opposed by you and anyone else who's given him the microphone at that moment to the world." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "And so that made my spidey sense tingle. Yeah, it's complicated. The stakes are very high. And as somebody who's been obviously family and also reading a lot about World War II, and it's just this whole period is a very difficult conversation. But I believe in the power, especially given who I am of not always," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but sometimes often turning the other cheek. Oh yeah, and again, things change when they're for public consumption. It's like, I mean, the cut for me that has just the use case I keep stumbling upon is the kinds of things that I will say on a podcast like this or if I'm giving a public lecture versus the kinds of things I will say at dinner with strangers or with friends. Like if you're in an elevator with strangers, I do not feel, and I hear someone say something stupid, I don't feel an intellectual responsibility to turn around in the confines of that space with them and say, listen, that thing you just said about X, Y, or Z is completely false and here's Y, right? But if somebody says it in front of me on some public dais where I'm actually talking about ideas, that's when there's a different responsibility that comes online. The question is how you say it. How you say it. Or even whether you say anything in those, I mean, they're definitely moments to privilege civility or just to pick your battles. I mean, sometimes it's just not worth it" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to get into it with somebody out in real life. I just believe in the power of empathy both in the elevator and when a bunch of people are listening that when they see you willing to consider another human being's perspective," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "it just gives more power to your words after. Well, yeah, but until it doesn't, because you can extend charity too far, right? It can be absolutely obvious what someone's motives really are and they're dissembling about that, right? And so then you're taking at face value their representations begins to look like you're just being duped and you're not actually doing the work of putting pressure on a bad actor. So it's, and again, the mental illness component here makes it very difficult to think about what you should or shouldn't have said to Kanye." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You can extend. So I think the topic of platforming is pretty interesting. Like what's your view on platforming controversial people? Let's start with the old, would you interview Hitler on your podcast and how would you talk to him? Oh, and follow up question. Would you interview him in 1935, 41, and then like 45?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, I think we have an uncanny valley problem with respect to this issue of whether or not to speak to bad people, right? So if a person is sufficiently bad, right? If they're all the way out of the valley, then you can talk to them and it's just totally unproblematic to talk to them because you don't have to spend any time signaling to your audience that you don't agree with them. If you're interviewing Hitler, you don't have to say, listen, I just got to say before we start, I don't agree with the whole genocide thing. And I just think you're killing mental patients and vans and all that. That was all bad. It was a bad look. Adolf, you just, it can go without saying that you don't agree with this person and you're not platforming them to signal boost their views. You're just trying to, if they're sufficiently evil, you can go into it very much as an anthropologist would. You just wanna understand the nature of evil, right? You just wanna understand this phenomenon, like how is this person, who they are, right? And that strikes me as a intellectually interesting and morally necessary thing to do, right? So yes, I think you always interview Hitler. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Well, when you know, once he's Hitler. But when do you know it?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Once he's legitimately- But when do you know it? Is genocide really happening? It's like 42, 43?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, no, no, no, no. It's like 42, 43? No, no, no, if you're on the cusp of it where it's just he's someone who's gaining power and you don't want to help facilitate that, then there's a question of whether you can undermine him while pushing back against him in that interview, right? So there are people I wouldn't talk to just because I don't want to give them oxygen and I don't think that in the context of my interviewing them, I'm gonna be able to take the wind out of their sails at all, right? So it's like for whatever, either because it's an asymmetric advantage because I just know that they can do something within the span of an hour that I can't correct for. It's like they can light many small fires" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and it just takes too much time to put them out. That's more like on the topic of vaccines, for example," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "having a debate on the efficacy of vaccines. Having a debate on the efficacy. It's not that I don't think sunlight is usually the best disinfectant, I think it is. You know, even these asymmetries aside, I mean, there are, it is true that a person can always make a mess faster than you can clean it up, but still there are debates worth having even given that limitation and they're the right people to have those specific debates and there's certain topics where I'll debate someone just because I'm the right person for the job and it doesn't matter how messy they're gonna be. It's just worth it because I can make my points land, at least to the right part of the audience." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So some of it is just your own skill and competence" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and also interest in preparing correctly? Well, yeah, yeah, and the nature of the subject matter but there are other people who just by default, I would say, well, there's no reason to give this guy a platform and there are also people who are so confabulatory that they're making such a mess with every sentence that insofar as you're even trying to interact with what they're saying, you're by definition going to fail and you're going to seem to fail to a sufficiently large uninformed audience where it's gonna be a net negative for the cause of truth no matter how good you are. So like, for instance, I think talking to Alex Jones on any topic for any reason is probably a bad idea because I just think he's just neurologically wired to just utter a string of sentences. He'll get 20 sentences out, each of which has to be, each of which contains more lives than the last and there's not time enough in the world to run down and it's certainly not time enough in the span of a conversation to run down each of those leads to bedrock so as to falsify it. I mean, he'll just make shit up or make shit up and then weave it in with half truths and micro truths that give some semblance of credibility to somebody out there. I mean, apparently millions of people out there and there's just no way to untangle that" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "in real time with him. I have noticed that you have an allergic reaction" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to confabularization. Confabulation." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Confabulation, confabulation. That if somebody says something a little micro-untruth" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "it really stops your brain. Here I'm not talking about micro-untruths, I'm just talking about making up things out of whole cloth. So it's like, if someone says something, well, what about, and then the thing they put at the end of that sentence, it's just a set of pseudo facts that you can't possibly authenticate or not in the span of that conversation. Whether it's about UFOs or anything else, they will seem to make you look like an ignoramus when in fact, everything they're saying is specious, whether they know it or not. I mean, there's some people who are just crazy, there's some people who are just bullshitting and they're not even tracking whether it's true, it just feels good," }, { "from": "human", "value": "and then some people are consciously lying about things. But don't you think there's just a kind of jazz masterpiece of untruth that you should be able to just wave off by saying like, well, none of that is backed up by any evidence and just almost like take it" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to the humor place and then. But the thing is, the place I'm familiar with doing this and not doing this is on specific conspiracies like 9-11-truth. So because of what 9-11 did to my intellectual life, I mean, it's really just, it sent me down a path for the better part of a decade. Like I became a critic of religion. I don't know if I was ever gonna be a critic of religion, right? But it happened to be in my wheelhouse because I spent so much time studying religion on my own and I was also very interested in the underlying spiritual concerns of every religion. And so I was, I devoted more than a full decade of my life to just, what is real here? What is possible? What is the nature of subjective reality and how does it relate to reality at large? And is there anything to just, who was someone like Jesus or Buddha? And are these people frauds? Are these just myths? Or is there really a continuum of insight to be had here that is interesting? So I spent a lot of time on that question" }, { "from": "human", "value": "through the full decade of my 20s. And that was launched in part by 9-11-truth or?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, but then when 9-11 happened, I had spent all this time reading religious books, understanding, empathically understanding the motivations of religious people, right? Knowing just how fully certain people believe what they say they believe, right? So I took religious convictions very seriously and then people started flying planes into our buildings. And so I knew that there was something to be said about that. Allegedly. The core doctrines of Islam, exactly. So I went down, so that became my wheelhouse for a time, terrorism and jihadism and related topics. And so the 9-11-truth conspiracy thing kept getting aimed at me and the question was, well, do I want to debate these people, right? Like? Alex Jones, perhaps. Yeah, so Alex Jones I think was an early purveyor of it, although I don't think I knew" }, { "from": "human", "value": "who he was at that point." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Allegedly." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, like Alex Jones, perhaps." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, and privately I had some very long debates with people who, one person in my family went way down that rabbit hole. And I just, every six months or so, I'd literally write the two hour email that would try to deprogram him, however ineffectually. And so I went back and forth for years on that topic with, in private with people. But I could see the structure of the conspiracy. I could see the nature of how impossible it was to play whack-a-mole sufficiently well so as to convince anyone of anything who was not seeing the problematic structure of that way of thinking. I mean, it's not actually a thesis. It's a proliferation of anomalies that don't, you can't actually connect all the dots that are being pointed to. They don't connect in a coherent way. They're incompatible theses that are not, and their incompatibility is not being acknowledged. But they're running this algorithm of things, things are never what they seem. There's always malicious conspirators doing things perfectly. We see evidence of human incompetence everywhere else. No one can tie their shoes expertly anywhere else. But over here, people are perfectly competent. They're perfectly concealing things, like thousands of people are collaborating inexplicably. I mean, incentivized by what, who knows? They're collaborating to murder thousands of their neighbors, and no one is breathing a peep about it. No one's getting caught on camera. No one's, no one's breathed a word of it to a journalist. And so I've dealt with that style of thinking, and I know what it's like to be in the weeds of a conversation like that. And the person will say, okay, well, but what do you make of the fact that all those F-16s were flown 800 miles out to sea on the morning of 9-11 to do an exercise that hadn't even been scheduled for that day, but it was, and now all of these, I dimly recall some thesis of that kind, but I'm just making these things up now, right? So like that detail hadn't even been scheduled for that day, it was inexplicably run that day. So how long would it take to track that down, right? The idea that this is anomalous, like there was a F-16 exercise run on it, and it wasn't even supposed to be run that day, right? Someone like Alex Jones, their speech pattern is to pack as much of that stuff in as possible at the highest velocity that the person can speak. And unless you're knocking down each one of those things, to that audience, you appear to just be uninformed. You appear to just not be, wait a minute, he didn't know about the F-16s. Yeah, sure. He doesn't know about Project Mockingbird, you haven't heard about Project Mockingbird? I just made up Project Mockingbird, I don't know what it is, but that's the kind of thing that comes tumbling out in a conversation like that. That's the kind of thing, frankly I was worried about in the Covid conversation, because not that someone like Brett would do it consciously, but someone like Brett is swimming a sea of misinformation on social, living on Twitter, getting people sending the blog post and the study from, you know, the Philippines that showed that in this cohort Ivermectin did X, right? And like to actually run anything to ground, right? You have to actually do the work journalistically and scientifically and run it to ground, right? So for some of these questions, you actually have to be a statistician to say, okay, they use the wrong statistics in this experiment, right? Now, yes, we could take all the time to do that, or we could at every stage along the way in a context where we have experts we can trust go with what 97% of the experts are saying about X, about the safety of mRNA, about the transmissibility of COVID, about whether to wear a mask or not wear masks. And I completely agree that that broke down unacceptably over the last few years. But I think that's largely a social media and blogs and the efforts of podcasters and sub-stack writers were not just a response to that, I think it was a symptom of that and a cause of that, right? And I think we're living in an environment where we've basically, we have trained ourselves not to be able to agree about facts on any topic, no matter how urgent, right? What's flying in our sky? What's happening in Ukraine? Is Putin just de-nossifying Ukraine? There are people who we respect who are spending time down that particular rabbit hole. Like this is, maybe there are a lot of Nazis in Ukraine and that's the real problem, right? Maybe Putin's not the bad actor here, right? How much time do I have to spend empathizing with Putin to the point of thinking, well, maybe Putin's got a point and it's like, what about the polonium and the nerve agents and the killing of journalists and the Navalny and like, does that count? Well, no, listen, I'm not paying so much attention to that because I'm following all these interesting people on Twitter and they're giving me some pro-Putin material here and there are some Nazis in Ukraine. It's not like there are no Nazis in Ukraine. How am I going to weight these things?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I think people are being driven crazy by Twitter. Yeah. But you're kind of speaking to conspiracy theories that pollute everything and then," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but every example you gave is kind of a bad faith style of conversation. But it's not necessarily knowingly bad faith by the people, the people who are worried about Ukrainian Nazis, some of the same people, they're the same people who are worried about the people. Intentionally. The Ivermectin got suppressed. Like Ivermectin is really a panacea, but it got suppressed for because no one could make billions on it. In many cases the same people and the same efforts to unearth those." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You're saying it's very difficult to have conversations with those kinds of people. What" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "about a conversation with Trump himself? Would you do a podcast with those kinds of people? No. I don't think so. I don't think I'd be learning anything about him. It's like with Hitler, and I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler, but- Clips guy, that's your chance. You got this one. With certain world historical figures, and I would just feel like, okay, this is an opportunity to learn something that I'm not going to learn. I think Trump is among the most superficial people we have ever laid eyes on. He is in public view, and I'm sure there's some distance between who he is in private and who he is in public, but it's not going to be the kind of distance that's going to blow my mind. I think the liability of that, for instance, I think Joe Rogan was very wise not to have Trump on his podcast. I think all he would have been doing is he would have put himself in a situation where he couldn't adequately contain the damage Trump was doing, and he was just going to make Trump seem cool to a whole potentially new cohort of his massive audience. They would have had a lot of laughs. Trump's funny. The entertainment value of things is so influential. There was that one debate where Trump got a massive laugh on his line, only Rosie O'Donnell. The truth is, we're living in a political system where if you can get a big laugh during a political debate, you win. It doesn't matter who you are. That's the level. It doesn't matter how uninformed you are. It doesn't matter that half the debate was about what the hell we should do about the threat of nuclear war or" }, { "from": "human", "value": "anything else. We're monkeys, and we like to laugh. Because he brought up Joe. He's somebody like you I look up to. I've learned a lot from him because I think who he is privately as a human being. Also, he's kind of the voice of curiosity to me. He inspired me that unending open-minded curiosity, much like you are the voice of reason. Joe had recently a podcast with Jordan Peterson, and he brought you up saying they still have a hope for you. Any chance that you talk to Joe again" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and reinvigorate your friendship? I reached out to him privately when I saw that clip." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Did you use the power of love?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Joe knows. I love him and consider him a friend, so there's no issue there. He also knows I'll be happy to do his podcast when we get that together. I've got no policy of not talking to Joe or not doing his podcast. I think we got a little sideways along these same lines where we've talked about Brett and Elon and other people. It was never to that degree with Joe because Joe's in a very different lane, and consciously so. Joe is a stand-up comic who interviews, who just is interested in everything, interviews the widest conceivable variety of people, and just lets his interests collide with their expertise or lack of expertise. Again, it's a super wide variety of people. He'll talk about anything, and he can always pull the rip cord saying, I don't know what the fuck I'm saying. I'm a comic. I'm stoned. We just drank too much. It's very entertaining. To my eye, it's all in good faith. I think Joe is an" }, { "from": "human", "value": "extraordinarily ethical, good person. Also doesn't use Twitter. He doesn't really use Twitter." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The crucial difference, though, is that because he is an entertainer first, I'm not saying he's not smart and doesn't understand things. What's potentially confusing is he's very smart, and he's full-time job. When he's not doing stand-up or doing color commentary for the UFC, his full-time job is talking to lots of very smart people at great length. He's created the Joe Rogan University for himself, and he's gotten a lot of information crammed into his head. It's not that he's uninformed, but when he feels that he's uninformed or when it turns out he was wrong about something, he can always pull the rip cord and say, I'm just a comic. We were stoned. It was fun. Don't take medical advice from me. I don't play a doctor on the internet. I can't quite do that. You can't quite do that. We're in different lanes. I'm not saying you and I are in exactly the same lane, but for much of Joe's audience, I'm just this establishment shill, just banging on about the universities and medical journals. It's not true, but that would be the perception. As a counterpoint to a lot of what's being said on Joe's podcast or certainly Brett's podcast on these topics, I can see how they would form that opinion. But in reality, if you listen to me long enough, you hear that I've said as much against the woke nonsense as anyone, even any lunatic on the right who can only keep that bright shining object in view. So there's nothing that Candace Owens has said about wokeness that I haven't said about wokeness insofar as she's speaking rationally about wokeness. But we have to be able to keep multiple things in view. If you could only look at the problem of wokeness and you couldn't acknowledge the problem of Trump and Trumpism and QAnon and the explosion of irrationality that was happening on the right and bigotry that was happening on the right, you were just disregarding half of the landscape, and many people took half of the problem in recent years. The last five years is a story of many people taking half of the problem and monetizing that half of the problem and getting captured by an audience that only wanted that half of the the problem talked about in that way. And this is the larger issue of audience capture, which is very... I'm sure it's an ancient problem, but it's a very helpful phrase that I think comes to us courtesy of our mutual friend, Eric Weinstein. And audience capture is a thing, and I believe I've witnessed many casualties of it. And if there's anything I've been on guard against in my life professionally, it's been that. And when I noticed that I had a lot of people in my audience who didn't like my criticizing Trump, I really leaned into it. And when I noticed that a lot of the other cohort in my audience didn't like me criticizing the far left and wokeness, they thought I was exaggerating that problem. I leaned into it because I thought those parts of my audience were absolutely wrong and I didn't care about whether I was going to lose those parts of my audience. There are people who have created, knowingly or not, there are people who've created different incentives for themselves because of how they've monetized their podcast and because of the kind of signal they've responded to in their audience. And I worry about... Brett would consider this a totally invidious ad hominem thing to say, but I really do worry that that's happened to Brett. I cannot explain how you do 100 with all the things in the universe to be interested in. And of all the things he's competent to speak intelligently about, I don't know how you" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "do 100 podcasts in a row on COVID. It makes no sense. You think in part audience capture can explain that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I absolutely think it can. I absolutely think it can." }, { "from": "human", "value": "For example, do you feel pressure to not admit that you made a mistake on COVID or made a mistake on Trump? I'm not saying you feel that way, but do you feel this pressure? So you've attacked audience capture within the way you do stuff, so you don't feel as much pressure from the audience, but within your own ego." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, again, the people who think I'm wrong about any of these topics are going to think, okay, you're just not admitting that you're wrong, but now we're having a dispute about specific facts. There are things that I believed about COVID or worried might be true about COVID two years ago that I no longer believe or I'm not so worried about now and vice versa. I mean, things have flipped, certain things have flipped upside down. The question is, was I wrong? So here's the cartoon version of it, but this is something I said probably 18 months ago and it's still true. When I saw what Brett was doing on COVID, let's call it two years ago, I said, even if he's right, even if it turns out that ivermectin is a panacea and the mRNA vaccines kill millions of people, he's still wrong right now. His reasoning is still flawed right now. His facts still suck right now and his confidence is unjustified now. That was true then, that will always be true then and not much has changed for me to revisit any of my time points along the way. Again, I will totally concede that if I had teenage boys and their schools were demanding that they'd be vaccinated with the mRNA vaccine, I would be powerfully annoyed. I wouldn't know what I was going to do and I would be doing more research about myocarditis and I'd be badgering our doctors and I would be worried that we have a medical system and a pharmaceutical system and a healthcare system and a public health system that's not incentivized to look at any of this in a fine-grained way and they just want one blanket admonition to the entire population. Just take the shot, you idiots. I view that largely as a result, a panicked response to the misinformation explosion that happened and the public, the populist resistance animated by misinformation that just made it impossible to get anyone to cooperate. Part of it is, again, a pendulum swing in the wrong direction, somewhat analogous to the woke response to Trump and the Trumpist response to woke. A lot of people have just gotten pushed around for bad reasons, but understandable reasons. But yes, there are caveats to things have changed about my view of COVID. But the question is, if you roll back the clock 18 months, was I wrong to want to platform Eric Topol, a very well-respected cardiologist on this topic or Nicholas Christakis to talk about the network effects of whether we should close schools. He's written a book on COVID. He's network effects or his wheelhouse, both as an MD and as a sociologist. There was a lot that we believed we knew about the efficacy of closing schools during pandemics, during the Spanish flu pandemic and others. But there's a lot we didn't know about COVID. We didn't know how negligible the effects would be on kids compared to older people." }, { "from": "human", "value": "My problem, I really enjoyed your conversation with Eric Topol, but also didn't. He's one of the great communicators in many ways on Twitter, distillation of the current data. I hope I'm not overstating it, but there is a bit of an arrogance from him that I think could be explained by him being exhausted, by being constantly attacked by conspiracy theory, like anti-vaxxers. To me, the same thing happens with people that start drifting to being right-wing, is to get attacked so much by the left, they become almost irrational and arrogant in their beliefs. I felt your conversation with Eric Topol did not sufficiently empathize with people that have skepticism, but also did not sufficiently communicate uncertainty we have. Many of the decisions you made, many of the things you were talking about were saying, there's a lot of uncertainty," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but this is the best thing we could do now. Well, it was a forced choice. You're going to get COVID. Do you want to be vaccinated when you get it? That was always, in my view, an easy choice. And it's up until you start breaking apart the cohorts and you start saying, okay, wait a minute, there is this myocarditis issue in young men. Let's talk about that. Before that story emerged, it was just clear that if it's not knocking down transmission as much as we had hoped, it is still mitigating severe illness and death. And I still believe that it is the current view of most people competent to analyze the data, that we lost something like 300,000 people" }, { "from": "human", "value": "unnecessarily in the US because of vaccine hesitancy. But I think there's a way to communicate with humility about the uncertainty of things that would increase the vaccination rate." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I do believe that it is rational and sometimes effective to signal impatience with certain bad ideas and certain conspiracy theories and certain forms of misinformation." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think so. I just think it makes you look like a douchebag most times." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, certain people are persuadable, certain people are not persuadable, but it's not enough. It's the opportunity cost. Not everything can be given a patient hearing. You can't have a physics conference and then let people in to just trumpet their pet theories about the grand unified vision of physics when they're obviously crazy or when they're obviously half crazy. You begin to get a sense for this when it is your wheelhouse, but there are people who declare their irrelevance to the conversation fairly quickly without knowing that they have done it. And the truth is, I think I'm one of those people on the topic of COVID. It's never that I felt, listen, I know exactly what's going on here. I know these mRNA vaccines are safe. I know exactly how to run a lockdown. No, this is a situation where you want the actual pilots to fly the plane. We needed experts who we could trust. And insofar as our experts got captured by all manner of things, I mean, some of them got captured by Trump. Some of them were made to look ridiculous just standing next to Trump while he was bloviating about whatever. It's just going to go away. There's just 15 people in a cruise ship and it's just going to go away. There's going to be no problem. Or it's like when he said, many of these doctors think, I understand this better than them. They're just amazed at how I understand this. And you've got doctors, real doctors, the heads of the CDC and NIH standing around just ashen faced while he's talking. All of this was deeply corrupting of the public communication of science. And then again, I've banged on about the depredations of wokeness. The woke thing was a disaster. I still is a disaster. But it doesn't mean that... But the thing is, there's a big difference between me and Brett in this case. I didn't do a hundred podcasts on COVID. I did like two podcasts on COVID. The measure of my concern about COVID can be measured in how many podcasts I did on it. It's like once we had a sense of how to live with COVID, I was just living with COVID. Like, okay, if you get vaxxed or don't get vaxxed, wear a mask or don't wear a mask, travel or don't travel. You've got a few things to decide, but my kids were stuck at home on iPads for too long. I didn't agree with that. It was obviously not functional. I criticized that on the margins, but there was not much to do about it. But the thing I didn't do is make this my life and just browbeat people with one message or another. We need a public health regime where we can trust what competent people are saying to us about what medicines are safe to take. And in the absence of that, craziness is going to put... Even in the presence of that craziness is going to proliferate given the tools we've built, but in the absence of that, it's going to proliferate for understandable reasons and that's gonna, it's not gonna be good next time when something orders of magnitude more dangerous hits us. And that's, I spent a little, insofar as I think about this issue, I think much more about next time than this time." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Before this COVID thing, you and Brad had some good conversations. I would say we're friends. What's your, what do you admire most about Brad outside of all the criticism we've had" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "about this COVID topic? Well, I think Brett is very smart and he's a very ethical person who wants good things for the world. I mean, I have no reason to doubt that. So the fact that we're on, you know, we're crosswise on this issue is not, does not mean that I think he's a bad person. I mean, the thing that worried me about what he was doing, and this was true of Joe and this was true of Elon, this is true of many other people, is that once you're messaging at scale to a vast audience, you incur a certain kind of responsibility not to get people killed. And I do, I did worry that yeah, people were, people were making decisions on the basis of the information that was getting shared there. And that, that's why I was, and that I think fairly circumspect. I just said, okay, give me the center of the fairway expert opinion at this time point and at this time point and at this time point, and then I'm out, right? I don't have any more to say about this. I'm not an expert on COVID. I'm not an expert on the safety of mRNA vaccines. If something, if something changes, so as to become newsworthy, then maybe I'll do a podcast. So I mean, I just did a podcast on the lab leak, right? I was never skeptical of the lab leak hypothesis. Brett was very early on saying this is a lab leak, right? At a point where my only position was who cares if it's a lab leak, right? Like this, the thing we have to get straight is" }, { "from": "human", "value": "what do we do given the nature of this pandemic, the lab leak, right? But also we should say that you've actually stated that it is a possibility. Oh, yeah. You just said it doesn't quite matter." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It did. Oh, yeah. You just said it doesn't quite matter. The time to figure that out. Now, I've actually, I have had my podcast guest on this topic changed my view of this because one of the guests, Alina Chan, made the point that, no, actually the best time to figure out the origin of this is immediately, right? Because in the event you lose touch with the evidence and I hadn't really been thinking about that. If you come back after a year, there are certain facts you might not be able to get in hand, but I've always felt that it didn't matter for two reasons. One is we had the genome of the virus and we could design, we're very quickly designed immediately designing vaccines against that genome. And that's what we had to do. And then we had to figure out how to vaccinate and to mitigate and to develop treatments and all of that. So the origin story didn't matter. Generically speaking, either origin story was politically inflammatory and made the Chinese look bad, right? And the Chinese response to this looked bad, whatever the origin story, right? They're not cooperating. They're letting, they're stopping their domestic flights, but letting their international flights go. I mean, it's just, they were bad actors and they should be treated as such regardless of the origin, right? And I would argue that the wet market origin is even more politically invidious than the lab leak origin. Because lab leak, to my eye, the lab leak could happen to anyone, right? We're all running, all these advanced countries are running these dangerous labs. That's a practice that we should be worried about in general. We know lab leaks are a problem. There've been multiple lab leaks of even worse things that haven't gotten out of hand in this way, but worse pathogens. Why do you think? We're wise to be worried about this. And on some level, it could happen to anyone, right? The wet market makes them look like barbarians living in another century. You got to clean up those wet markets. What are you doing putting a bat on top of a pangolin on top of a duck? It's like, get your shit together. So if anything, the wet market makes them look worse in my view. Now, I'm sure that what they actually did to conceal a lab leak," }, { "from": "human", "value": "if it was a lab leak, all of that's going to look odious. Do you think we'll ever get to the bottom of that? I mean, one of the big negative, I would say failures of Anthony Fauci and so on is to be transparent and clear and just a good communicator about gain and functional research. The dangers of that, why it's a useful way of research, but it's also dangerous. Just being transparent about that as opposed to just coming off really shady. Of course, the conspiracy theorists and the" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "politicians are not helping, but this just created a giant mess. Yeah, no, I would agree. So that exchange with Fauci and Rand Paul, they went viral. Yeah, I would agree that Fauci looked like he was taking refuge in very lawyered language and not giving a straightforward account of what we do and why we do it. So yeah, I think it looked shady. It played shady and it probably was shady. I don't know how personally entangled he is with any of this, but yeah, the gain of function research is something that I think we're wise to be worried about. And insofar as I judge myself adequate to have an opinion on this, I think it should be banned. Probably a podcast I'll do, if you or somebody else doesn't do it in the meantime, I would like a virologist to defend it against a virologist who would criticize it. Forget about the gain of function research. I don't even understand virus hunting at this point. It's like, I don't even know why you need to go into a cave to find this next virus that could be circulating among bats that may jump zoonotically to us. Why do that when we can sequence in a day and make vaccines in a weekend? What kind of head start do you think you're getting?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "What kind of head start do you think you're getting? That's a surprising new thing, how quickly you can develop a vaccine. Yeah, that's really interesting, but the shadiness around lab leak." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Exactly. I think the point I didn't make about Brett's style of engaging this issue is people are using the fact that he was early on lab leak to suggest that he was right about ivermectin and about mRNA vaccines and all the rest. No, none of that connects. And it was possible to be falsely confident. You shouldn't have been confident about lab. No one should have been confident about lab leak early, even if it turns out to be lab leak. It was always plausible. It was never definite. It still isn't definite. Zoonotic is also quite plausible. It certainly was super plausible then. Both are politically uncomfortable. Both at the time were inflammatory to be banging on about when we were trying to secure some kind of cooperation from the Chinese. So there's a time for these things and it's possible to be right by accident. The style of reasoning matters whether you're right or not. It's like because your style of" }, { "from": "human", "value": "reasoning is dictating what you're going to do on the next topic. Sure. But this multi-variant situation here, it's really difficult to know what's right on COVID given all the uncertainty and all the chaos, especially when you step outside the pure biology of it and you start getting to policy. Yeah, it's just trade-offs. Like transmissibility of the virus. Just knowing if 65% of the population gets vaccinated, what effect would that have? Just even knowing those things, just modeling all those things. Given all the other incentives, Pfizer, I don't know what to" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "think. But you had the CEO of Pfizer on your podcast. Did you leave that conversation feeling like this is a person who is consciously reaping windfall profits on a dangerous vaccine and putting everyone at intolerable risk? Or did you think this person was making a good faith attempt to save lives and had no taint of bad incentives or something?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "The thing I sensed and I felt in part, it was a failure on my part, but I sensed that I was talking to a politician. It's not thinking of there was malevolence there or benevolence. He just had a job. He put on a suit and I was talking to a suit, not a human being. Now, he said that his son was a big fan of the podcast, which is why he wanted to do it. I thought I would be talking to a human being. I asked challenging questions what I thought the internet thinks otherwise. Every single" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "question in that interview was a challenging one, but it wasn't grilling, which is what people seem" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to want to do with pharmaceutical companies. There's a deep distrust of pharmaceutical companies." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What was the alternative? I mean, I totally get that windfall profits at a time of public health emergency looks bad. It is a bad look, right? But how do we reward and return to risk takers who will spend a billion dollars to design a new drug for a disease that maybe only harms a single digit percentage of the population? It's like, well, what do we want to encourage? And who do we want to get rich? I mean, so the person who cures cancer, do we want that person to get rich or not? We want the person who gave us the iPhone to get rich, but we don't want the person who cures cancer to get rich. What are we trying to do? That windfall product. What are we" }, { "from": "human", "value": "trying to do? I think it's a very gray area. So what we want is the person who declares that they have a cure for cancer, to have authenticity and transparency. I think we're good now as a population smelling bullshit. And there is something about the Pfizer CEO, for example, just CEOs of pharmaceutical companies in general, just because they're so lawyered up, so much marketing and PR people, that they are, you just smell bullshit. You're not talking a real human. It just feels like none of it is transparent to us as a public. So this whole talking point that Pfizer is only interested in helping people just doesn't ring true. Even though it's very well could be true. It's the same thing with Bill Gates, who seems to be at scale helping a huge amount of people in the world. And yet there's something about the way he delivers that message where people like, this seems suspicious. What's happening underneath this? There's certain kinds of communication styles that seem to be more service, better catalysts for conspiracy theories. And I'm not sure what that is, because I don't think there's an alternative for capitalism in delivering drugs that help people. But also at the same time, there seems to need to be more transparency. And plus regulation, that actually makes sense versus it seems like pharmaceutical companies are susceptible to corruption." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, I worry about all that. But I also do think that more people, I also do think that most of the people going into those fields and most of the people going into government are doing it for good. And they're non-psycho paths, trying to get good things done and trying to solve hard problems. And they're not trying to get rich." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, many of the people are, it's like- Yeah, they want to do good." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Bad incentives or something, again, I've uttered that phrase 30 times on this podcast, but it's just almost everywhere it explains normal people creating terrible harm. It's not that there are that many bad people. And yes, it makes the truly bad people that much more remarkable and worth paying attention to, but the bad incentives and the power of bad ideas do much more harm. Because that's what gets good people running in the wrong direction or" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "doing things that are clearly creating unnecessary suffering. You've had, and I hope still have a friendship with Elon Musk, especially over the topic of AI. You have a lot of interesting ideas that you both share, concerns you both share. Well, let me first ask, what do you admire most about Elon?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, I had a lot of fun with Elon. I like Elon a lot. I mean, Elon, I knew as a friend, I like a lot. And it's not going to surprise anyone. He's done and he's continuing to do amazing things. And I think many of his aspirations are realized the world would be a much better place. I think it's just, it's amazing to see what he's built and what he's attempted to build and what he" }, { "from": "human", "value": "may yet build. So Tesla or SpaceX?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. I'm a fan of almost all of that. I mean, there are wrinkles to a lot of that," }, { "from": "human", "value": "or some of that. All humans are full of wrinkles." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "There's something very trumping about how he's acting on Twitter. I mean, Twitter, I think Twitter, he thinks Twitter is great. He bought the place because he thinks it's so great. I think Twitter is driving him crazy. I think he's needlessly complicating his life and harming his reputation and creating a lot of noise and harming a lot of other people. The thing that I objected to with him on Twitter is not that he bought it and made changes to it. I mean, that was not, again, I remain agnostic as to whether or not he can improve the platform. It was how he was personally behaving on Twitter, not just toward me, but toward the world. I think when you forward an article about Nancy Pelosi's husband being attacked, not as he was by some lunatic, but that it's just some gay, gay, tryst gone awry, that's not what it seems, and you link to a website that previously claimed that Hillary Clinton was dead and that a body double was campaigning in her place, that thing was exploding in Trumpistan as a conspiracy theory, and it was having its effect. It matters that he was signal boosting it in front of 130 million people. So it is with saying that your former employee, Yoel Roth, is a pedophile. That has real consequences. It appeared to be complete bullshit, and now this guy's getting inundated with death threats. Elon, all that's totally predictable. So he's behaving quite recklessly, and there's a long list of things like that that he's done on Twitter. It's not ethical. It's not good for him. It's not good for the world. It's not serious. It's a very adolescent relationship to real problems in our society, and so my problem with how he's behaved is that he's purported to touch real issues by turns, like, okay, do I give the satellites to Ukraine or not? Do I minimize their use of them or not? Should I publicly worry about World War III or not? He's doing this shit on Twitter, and at the same moment, he's doing these other very impulsive, ill-considered things, and he's not showing any willingness to really clean up the mess he makes. He brings Kanye on, knowing he's an anti-Semite who's got mental health problems, and then kicks him off for a swastika, which I probably wouldn't have kicked him off for a swastika. Can you really kick people off for swastikas? Is that something that you get banned for? Are you a free speech absolutist if you can't let a swastika show up? I'm not even sure that's an enforceable terms of service. There are moments to use swastikas that are not conveying hate and not raising the risk of violence. Clip that? Yeah. But so much of what he's doing, again, scale matters. He's doing this in front of 130 million people. That's very different than a million people, and that's very different than 100,000 people. So when I went off the tracks with Elon, he was doing this about COVID, and again, this was a situation where I tried to privately" }, { "from": "human", "value": "mitigate a friend's behavior, and it didn't work out very well. Did you try to correct him highlighting things he might be wrong on? Yeah. Or did you use the Lex Power love method? I should" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "write like a pamphlet for Sam Harris. Well, no, but it was totally coming from a place of love because I was concerned about his reputation. I was concerned about what he... I mean, there was a two-fold concern. I could see what was happening with the tweet. I mean, he'd had this original tweet that was, I think it was, panic over COVID is dumb or something like that. This is in March, it's early March, 2020. Oh, super early days of COVID. Super early. When nobody knew anything," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but we knew we saw what was happening in Italy. It was totally kicking off. God, that was a wild" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "time. That's when the toilet paper, that's when the toilet paper. It was totally wild, but that became the most influential tweet on Twitter for that week. I mean, it had more engagement than any other tweet, more than any crazy thing Trump was tweeting. I mean, it went off, again, it was just a nuclear bomb of information. And I could see that people were responding to it like, wait a minute, okay, here's this genius technologist who must have inside information about everything. Surely he knows something that is not on the surface about this pandemic. They were reading into it a lot of information that I knew wasn't there. And at the time, I didn't think he had any reason to be suggesting that. I think he was just firing off a tweet. Right? So I reached out to him in private and I mean, because it was a private text conversation, I won't talk about the details, but I'm just saying that's a case among the many cases of friends who have public platforms and who did something that I thought was dangerous and ill considered. This was a case where I reached out in private and tried to genuinely help because it was just, I thought it was harmful in every sense because it was being misinterpreted. And it was like, okay, you can say that panic over anything is dumb. Fine. But this was not how this was landing. This was like non-issue conspiracy. There's going to be no COVID in the US. It's going to peter out. It's just going to become a cold. I mean, that's how this was getting received. Whereas at that moment, it was absolutely obvious how big a deal this was going to be or that it was going to at minimum going to be a big deal." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I don't know if it was obvious, but it was obvious there was a significant probability that it could be a big deal. I remember it wasn't clear. There's still stories of it, the big concern, the hospital's might have been filled, but it's gonna calculating in two months" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or something. Yeah. No, but there was no way we weren't going to have tens of thousands of deaths at a minimum at that point, and it was totally rational to be worried about hundreds of thousands, and when Nicholas Christakis came on my podcast very early, he predicted quite confidently that we would have about a million people dead in the US, and that didn't seem, it was, I think, appropriately hedged, but it was still, it was just like, okay, it's just gonna, you just look at the, we're just kinda riding this exponential, and we're, and it's gonna be, you know, it'd be very surprising not to have that order of magnitude, and not something much, much less. And so anyway, I mean, again, to close the story on Elon, I could see how this was being received, and I tried to get him to walk that back, and then we had a fairly long and detailed exchange on this issue, and so that intervention didn't work, and it was not done, you know, I was not an asshole, I was not, I was just concerned, for him, for the world, and then there are other relationships where I didn't take the, again, that's an example where taking the time didn't work, right, privately. There are other relationships where I thought, okay, this is just gonna be more trouble than it's worth, and I said, I just ignored it, you know? And there's a lot of that and I, Frank, again, I'm not comfortable with how this is all netted out because I don't know if, you know, frankly, I'm not comfortable with how much time in this conversation we've spent talking about these specific people. Like what good is it for me to talk about Elon or Brett" }, { "from": "human", "value": "or anything? I think there's a lot of good because those friendships, listen, as a fan, these are the conversations that I loved, love as a fan and it feels like COVID has robbed the world of these conversations because you were exchanging back and forth on Twitter, but that's not what I mean by conversations, like long-form discussions, like a debate about COVID," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "like a normal debate and debate. But there's no, Elon and I shouldn't be debating COVID." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You should be. Here's the thing with humility, like basically saying, we don't really know, like the Rogan method, we're just a bunch of idiots. Like one is an engineer, you're a neuroscientist, it just kind of, okay, here's the evidence and be like normal people. That's what everybody was doing. The whole world was like trying to figure out" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "what the hell, what? Yeah, but the issue was that at that, so at the moment I had this collision with Elon, certain things were not debatable, right? It was just, it was absolutely clear where this was going. It wasn't clear how far it was gonna go or how quickly we would mitigate it, but it was absolutely clear that it was gonna be an issue, right? The train had come off the tracks in Italy. We knew we weren't gonna seal our borders. There were already people, there are already cases known to many of us personally in the US at that point. And he was operating by a very different logic" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that I couldn't engage with. Sure, but that logic represents a part of the population and there's a lot of interesting topics that have a lot of uncertainty around them, like the effectiveness of masks." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, but no, but where things broke down was not at the point of, oh, there's a lot to talk about, a lot to debate, this is all very interesting, and who knows what's what. It broke down very early at, this is, there's nothing to talk about here, like either there's a water bottle on the table or there isn't, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Technically, there's only one fourth of a water bottle. So what defines a water bottle? Is it the water inside the water bottle or is it the water bottle? What I'm giving you is an example" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of it's worth the conversation. This is difficult because we had an exchange in private and I wanna honor not exposing the details of it, but the details convinced me that there was not a followup conversation on that topic." }, { "from": "human", "value": "On this topic. On this topic. That said, I hope, and I hope to be part of helping that happen, that the friendship was rekindled because one of the topics I care a lot about artificial intelligence, you've had great public and private conversations about this topic. And it seems like-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yes, and Elon was very formative in my taking that issue seriously. I mean, he and I went to that initial conference in Puerto Rico together and it was only because he was going and I found out about it through him and I just wrote his coattails to it that I got dropped in that side of the pool" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to hear about these concerns at that point. It would be interesting to hear how's your concern evolved with the coming out of Chad GPT and these new large language models that are fine-tuned with reinforcement learning and seemingly to be able to do some incredible human-like things. There's two questions. One, how's your concern in terms of AGI and super intelligence evolved and how impressed are you with Chad GPT" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "as a student of the human mind and mind in general? Well, my concern about AGI is unchanged. And so I've spoken about it a bunch on my podcast but I did a TED talk in 2016 which was the kind of summary of what that conference and various conversations I had after that did to my brain on this topic." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Basically, that once super intelligence is achieved, there's a takeoff, it becomes exponentially smarter and in a matter of time, there's just," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "we're ants and they're gods. Well, yeah, unless we find some way of permanently tethering a super intelligent self-improving AI to our value system. And I don't believe anyone has figured out how to do that or whether that's even possible in principle. I know people like Stuart Russell who I just had on my podcast are- Oh, really? Have you released it yet? I haven't released it yet. Oh, great, that's great. Yeah, we've been due to previous podcasts but we just recorded it this week." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Because you haven't tried, have you released it yet? I haven't released it, yeah, yeah. Oh, great, that's great. But he's been on- Because you haven't done an AI podcast in a while, so it's great. He's a good person to talk" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "about alignment with, so that's great. Yeah, so I just said- He's a good person to talk about alignment with. Yeah, so Stuart I mean, Stuart has been probably more than anyone my guru on this topic. I mean, like you're just reading his book and doing, I think I've done two podcasts with him at this point. No, it's called the control problem or something like that. His book is human compatible. Human compatible. He talks about the control problem. And yeah, so I just think the idea that we can define a value function in advance that permanently tethers a self-improving super intelligent AI to our values as we continue to discover them, refine them, extrapolate them in an open-ended way, I think that's a tall order. And I think there are many more ways, there must be many more ways of designing super intelligence that is not aligned in that way and is not ever approximating our values in that way. So Stuart's idea to put it in a very simple way is that he thinks you don't want to specify the value function up front. You don't want to imagine you could ever write the code in such a way as to admit of no loophole. You want to make the AI uncertain as to what human values are, and perpetually uncertain, and always trying to ameliorate that uncertainty by hewing more and more closely to what our professed values are. So it's always interested in saying, oh, no, no, that's not what we want. That's not what we intend. Stop doing that. No matter how smart it gets, all it wants to do is more perfectly approximate human values. I think there are a lot of problems with that. At a high level, I'm not a computer scientist, so I'm sure there are many problems at a low level that I don't understand. They've got to force a human into the loop always, no matter what, always, no matter what. There's that and what humans get a vote and just what do humans value and what is the difference between what we say we value and our revealed preferences, which if you were a super intelligent AI that could look at humanity now, I think you could be forgiven for concluding that what we value is driving ourselves crazy with Twitter and living perpetually on the brink of nuclear war and just watching Hot Girls and Yoga Pants on TikTok again and again and again. And you're saying that is not? This is all revealed preference and it's what is an AI to make of that and what should it optimize? This is also Stuart's observation that this is one of the insidious things about the YouTube algorithm is it's not that it just caters to our preferences. It actually begins to change us in ways so as to make us more predictable. It finds ways to make us a better reporter of our preferences and to trim our preferences down so that it can further train to that signal. The main concern is that most of the people in the field seem not to be taking intelligence seriously. As they design more and more intelligent machines and as they profess to want to design true AGI, again, they're not spending the time that Stuart is spending trying to figure out how to do this safely above all. They're just assuming that these problems are going to solve themselves as we make that final stride into the end zone or they're saying very Pollyannaish things like an AI would never form a motive to harm human. Why would it ever form a motive to be malicious toward humanity unless we put that motive in there? That's not the concern. The concern is that in the presence of vast disparities in competence and certainly in a condition where the machines are improving themselves, they're improving their own code, they could be developing instrumental goals that are antithetical to our well-being without any intent to harm us. It's analogous to what we do to every other species on Earth. You and I don't consciously form the intention to harm insects on a daily basis, but there are many things we could intend to do that would, in fact, harm insects because you decide to repave your driveway or whatever you're doing. You're just not taking the interest of insects into account because they're so far beneath you in terms of your cognitive horizons. The real challenge here is that if you believe that intelligence scales up on a continuum toward heights that we can only dimly imagine and I think there's every reason to believe that. There's no reason to believe that we're near the summit of intelligence. Maybe there's some forms of intelligence for which this is not true, but for many relevant forms, like the top 100 things we care about cognitively. I think there's every reason to believe that many of those things, most of those things are a lot like chess or go, where once the machines get better than we are, they're going to stay better than we are, although I don't know if you caught the recent thing with go. This guy actually came out of Stuart's lab. One time a human beat a machine. Yeah, they found a hack for that. But anyway, ultimately, there's going to be no looking back. Then the question is, what do we do in relationship to these systems that are more competent than we are in every relevant respect? Because it will be a relationship. The people who think we're just going to figure this all out without thinking about it in advance, the solutions are just going to find themselves, seem not to be taking the prospect of really creating autonomous super intelligence seriously. What does that mean? What does that mean? It's every bit as independent and ungovernable ultimately as us having created. Imagine if we created a race of people that were 10 times smarter than all of us. How would we live with those people? They're 10 times smarter than us. They begin to talk about things we don't understand. They begin to want things we don't understand. They begin to view us as obstacles to solving those problems or gratifying those desires, we become the chickens or the monkeys in their presence. And I think that it's but for some amazing solution of the sort that Stuart is imagining that we could somehow anchor their reward function permanently, no matter how intelligent scales, I think it's really worth worrying about this. I do buy the sci-fi notion that this is an existential risk if we don't do it well." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I worry that we don't notice it. I'm deeply impressed with Chad GPT and I'm worried that it will become super intelligent. These language models will become super intelligent because they're basically trained in the collective intelligence of the human species and then it will start controlling our behavior if they're integrated into our algorithms, the recommender systems. And then we just won't notice that there is a super intelligent system" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that's controlling our behavior. Well, I think that's true even before, far before super intelligence or even before general intelligence. I think just the narrow intelligence of these algorithms and of what something like Chad GPT can do. I mean, it's just far short of it developing its own goals that are cross purposes with ours, just the unintended consequences of using it in the ways we're going to be incentivized to use it and the money to be made from scaling this thing and what it does to our information space and our sense of just being able to get the ground truth on any facts. Yeah, it's super scary." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Do you think it's a giant leap in terms of the development towards AGI, Chad GPT, or is it just an impressive little toolbox? When do you think the singularity is coming? Or is it T? It doesn't" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "matter. I have no intuitions on that front, apart from the fact that if we continue to make progress, it will come. You just have to assume we continue to make progress. There's only two assumptions. You have to assume substrate independence. So there's no reason why this can't be done in silico. It's just we can build arbitrarily intelligent machines. There's nothing magical about having this done in the wetware of our own brains. I think that is true. I think that's scientifically parsimonious, I think that that's true. Then you just have to assume we're going to keep making progress. It doesn't have to be any special rate of progress, it doesn't have to be Moore's Law. We just keep going. At a certain point, we're going to be in relationship to mind's... Leaving consciousness aside, I don't have any reason to believe that that they'll necessarily be conscious by virtue of being super intelligent. And that's its own interesting ethical question. But leaving conscious aside, they're gonna be more competent than we are. And then that's like, you know, the aliens have landed. You know, that's literally, that's an encounter with, again, leaving aside the possibility that something like Stuart's path is actually available to us. But it is hard to picture, aliens have landed. If what we mean by intelligence, all things considered, and it's truly general, if that scales and begins to build upon itself, build upon itself, how you maintain that perfect, slavish devotion until the end of time in those systems." }, { "from": "human", "value": "The tether to humans? Yeah. I think my gut says that that tether is not, there's a lot of ways to do it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So it's not this increasingly impossible problem. Right, so I have no, you know, as you know, I'm not a computer scientist. I have no intuitions about just algorithmically" }, { "from": "human", "value": "how you would approach that and what's possible. My main intuition is maybe deeply flawed, but the main intuition is based on the fact that most of the learning is currently happening on human knowledge. So even Chad GPT is just trained on human data. I don't see where the takeoff happens where you completely go above human wisdom. The current impressive aspect of Chad GPT" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "is that's using collective intelligence of all of us. From what I gleaned from, again, from people who know much more about this than I do, I think we have reason to be skeptical that these techniques of deep learning are actually going to be sufficient to push us into AGI. Right, so it's just, they're not generalizing in the way they need to. They're certainly not learning like human children. And so they're brittle in strange ways. They're, it's not to say that the human path is the only path, and maybe we might learn better lessons by ignoring the way brains work, but we know that they don't generalize and use abstraction the way we do. And so they have strange holes in their competence." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But the size of the holes is shrinking every time. And that's, so the intuition starts to slowly fall apart. The intuition is like surely it can't be this simple to achieve some intelligence. Yeah, but it's becoming simpler and simpler. So I don't know, I don't, the progress is quite incredible. I've been extremely impressed with Chad GPT and the new models, and there's a lot of financial incentive to make progress in this regard. So it's, we're going to be living" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "through some very interesting times." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, yeah. In raising a question that I'm going to be talking to you, a lot of people brought up this topic, probably because Eric Weinstein talked to Joe Rogan recently and said that he and you were contacted by folks about UFOs. Can you clarify the nature of this contact?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Can you, that you were contacted by, that you were contacted by? I've got very little to say on this. I mean, he has much more to say. I think he, I think he went down this rabbit hole further than I did, which wouldn't surprise anyone. He's got much more of a taste for this sort of thing than I do, but I think we were contacted by the same person. It wasn't clear to me who this person was or how this person got my cell phone number. They didn't seem, it didn't seem like we were getting punked." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, the person seemed credible to me. And they were talking to you about the release" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of different videos on UFOs. Yeah, and this is when there was a flurry of activity around this. So there was like, there was a big New Yorker article on UFOs and there was rumors of congressional hearings, I think, come in and the videos that were being debunked or not. And so this person contacted both of us, I think around the same time. And I think he might've contacted Rogan or other, Eric is just the only person I've spoken to about it, I think, who I know was contacted. And what happened is the person kept writing a check that he didn't cash. Like he kept saying, okay, next week I'm gonna, I understand this is sounding spooky and you have no reason to really trust me, but next week I'm gonna put you on a Zoom call with people who you will recognize and they're gonna be former heads of the CIA and people who just, you're gonna, within five seconds of being on the Zoom call, you'll know this is not a hoax. And I said, great, just let me know, just send me the Zoom link, right? And I went, that happened maybe three times, you know, there was just one phone conversation and then it was just texts, you know, there's just a bunch of texts. And I think Eric spent more time with this person and I'm not, I haven't spoken to him about it, I know he's spoken about it publicly, but so I, you know, it's not that my bullshit detector ever really went off in a big way, it's just the thing never happened." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "And so I lost interest. So you made a comment which is interesting that you ran the, which I really appreciate, that you ran a thought experiment of saying, okay, maybe we do have alien spacecraft or just the thought experiment the aliens did visit and then the aliens did visit. This is very kind of nihilistic sad thought that it wouldn't matter, it wouldn't affect your life." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Can you explain that? Well, no, I was, I think many people noticed this. I mean, this was a sign of how crazy the news cycle was at that point, right? Like we had COVID and we had Trump and I forget when the UFO thing was really kicking off, but it just seemed like no one had the bandwidth to even be interested in this. It's like, I was amazed to notice in myself that I wasn't more interested in figuring out what was going on. It's like, and I considered, okay, wait a minute. This is, if this is true, this is the biggest story in anyone's lifetime. I mean, contact with alien intelligence is by definition, the biggest story in anyone's lifetime in human history. Why isn't this just totally captivating? And not only was it not totally captivating, it would just barely rise into the level of my being able to pay attention to it. And I view that, I mean, one as a, to some degree, an understandable defense mechanism against the bogus claims that have been made about this kind of thing in the past. You know, the general sense is probably bullshit or it probably has some explanation that is purely terrestrial and not surprising. And there is somebody who, what's his name? Mick West, I forget, is it a YouTuber? Yeah, he debunked stuff. Yeah, I mean, I have since seen some of those videos. I mean, now this is going back still at least a year, but some of those videos seem like fairly credible debunkings of some of the optical evidence. And I'm surprised we haven't seen more of that. Like there was a fairly credulous 60 Minutes piece that came out around that time, looking at some of that video. And it was the very video that he was debunking on YouTube and his video only had like 50,000 views on it or whatever. But again, it seemed like a fairly credible debunking. I haven't seen debunkings of his debunkings," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but is it a YouTuber? Mick West, yeah, he debunked stuff. I think there is, but he's basically saying that there is possible explanations for it. And usually in these kinds of contexts, if there's a possible explanation, even if it seems unlikely, it's going to be more likely" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "than an alien civilization visiting us, civilization visiting us. Yeah, it's the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence principle," }, { "from": "human", "value": "which I think is generally true. Well, with aliens, I think generally, I think there should be some humility about what they would look like when they show up." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I tend to think they're already here. The amazing thing about this AI conversation though, is that we're talking about a circumstance where we would be designing the aliens and there's every reason to believe that eventually this is going to happen. Like I said, I'm not at all skeptical about the coming reality of the aliens and we're going to build them." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Now, here's the thing. Does this apply to when super intelligence shows up? Will this be trending on Twitter for a day? And then we'll go on to complain about something Sam Harris once again said on his podcast next day. You tend to trend on Twitter, even though you're not on Twitter, which is great." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, I haven't noticed. I mean, I did notice when I was on, but." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You have this concern about AGI basically, same kind of thing that we would just look the other way. Is there something about this time where even like World War III, which has been throwing around very casually," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "concerningly so, even that the new cycle wipes that away. Yeah, well, I think we have this general problem that we can't make certain information, even unequivocally certain information emotionally salient. Like we respond quite readily to certain things. I mean, as we talked about, we respond to the little girl who fell down a well. I mean, that just gets 100% of our emotional resources, but the abstract probability of nuclear war, even a high probability, even just even an intolerable probability, even if we put it at 30%, like it's just like that's Russian roulette with a gun with three chambers. And it's aimed at the heads, not only your head, but your kid's head and everyone's kid's head. And it's just 24 hours a day. And I mean, I think people who, this pre Ukraine, I think the people who have made it their business to professionally to think about the risk of nuclear war and to mitigate it, people like Graham Allison or William Perry, I mean, I think they were putting like the ongoing risk, I mean, just the risk that we're gonna have a proper nuclear war at some point in the next generation, people were putting it at something like 50%, that we're living with this sort of Damocles over our heads. Now, you might wonder whether anyone could have reliable intuitions about the probability of that kind of thing. But the status quo is truly alarming. I mean, we've got ICBMs on, leave aside smaller exchanges and tactical nukes and how we could have a world war based on incremental changes. We've got the biggest bombs aimed at the biggest cities in both directions and it's old technology, right? And it's vulnerable to some lunatic deciding to launch or misreading bad data. And we know we've been saved from nuclear war, I think at least twice by Soviet submarine commanders deciding I'm not gonna pass this up to change a chain of command, right? It's like this is almost certainly an error and it turns out it was an error. And it's like, and we need people to, I mean, in that particular case, like he saw, I think it was five, what seemed like five missiles launched from the US to Russia. And he reasoned if America was gonna engage in a first strike, they'd launch more than five missiles, right, so this has to be fictional. And then he waited long enough to decide that it was fictional. But the probability of a nuclear war happening by mistake or some other species of inadvertence, misunderstanding, technical malfunction, that's intolerable. Forget about the intentional use of it" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "by people who are driven crazy by some ideology. And more and more technologies" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "enable a kind of scale of destruction. And misinformation plays into this picture in a way that is especially scary. I mean, once you can get a deep fake of, any current president of the United States claiming to have launched a first strike, and just send that everywhere." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But that could change the nature of truth, and then we, that might change the engine we have for skepticism, sharpen it. The more you have deep fakes." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, and we might have AI and digital watermarks that help us, maybe we'll not trust any information that hasn't come through specific channels, right? I mean, so in my world, it's like, I no longer feel the need to respond to anything other than what I put out in my channels of information. It's like, there's so many people who have clipped stuff of me that shows the opposite of what I was actually saying in context. I mean, the people have like re-edited my podcast audio to make it seem like I said the opposite of what I was saying. It's like, unless I put it out, you can't be sure that I actually said it. I mean, it's just, but I don't know what it's like to live like that for all forms of information. And I mean, strangely, I think it may require a greater siloing of information in the end. We're living through this sort of Wild West period where everyone's got a newsletter and everyone's got a blog and everyone's got an opinion." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But once you can fake everything. There might be a greater value for expertise for experts, but a more rigorous system" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "for identifying who the experts are for experts. Yeah, or just knowing that it's gonna be an arms race to authenticate information. So it's like, if you can never trust a photograph, unless it has been vetted by Getty Images, because only Getty Images has the resources to authenticate the provenance of that photograph and a test that it hasn't been meddled with by AI. And again, I don't even know if that's technically possible. I mean, maybe whatever the tools available for this will be commodified and the cost will be driven to zero so quickly that everyone will be able to do it. It could be like encryption, but." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, and it would be proven and tested most effectively first, of course, as always in porn. Yeah, which is where most of human innovation technology happens first. Well, I have to ask because Ron Howard, the director asked us on Twitter, since we're talking about the threat of nuclear war and otherwise, he asked, I'd be interested in both your expectations for human society if, when we move beyond Mars. Will those societies be industrial based? How will it be governed? How will criminal infractions be dealt with? When you read or watch sci-fi, what comes closest to sounding logical? Do you think about our society beyond Earth?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "If we colonize Mars, if we colonize space? Yeah, well, I think I have a pretty humbling picture of that. Because we're still gonna be the apes that we are. So when you imagine colonizing Mars, you have to imagine a first fistfight on Mars. You have to imagine a first murder on Mars. Also infidelity. Extramarital affairs on Mars. So it's gonna get really homely and boring really fast, I think. It's like only the spacesuits, or the other exingencies of just living in that atmosphere or lack thereof," }, { "from": "human", "value": "will limit how badly we can behave on Mars. Yeah, somebody else. But do you think most of the interaction will be still in meat space versus digital? Do you think there'll be, do you think we're living through a transformation of a kind where we're going to be doing more and more interaction than digital space? Like everything we've been complaining about Twitter, is it possible that Twitter's just the early days of a broken system that's actually giving birth" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to a better working system that's ultimately digital? I think we're gonna experience a pendulum swing back into the real world. I mean, I think many of us are experiencing that now anyway." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, just wanting to the real world." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Have face-to-face encounters and spend less time on our phones and less time online. I think maybe everyone isn't going in that direction, but I do notice it myself. And I notice, I mean, once I got off Twitter, then I noticed the people who are never on Twitter, right? And the people who are never, basically, I mean, I know, I have a lot of friends who are never on Twitter. And they actually never understood what I was doing on Twitter. It was like it wasn't that they were seeing it seeing it and then reacting to it, they just didn't know, it's like, right? And it's like being on, it's like I'm not on Reddit either, but I don't spend any time thinking about not being on Reddit, right? It's like, I'm just not on Reddit." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Do you think the pursuit of human happiness is better achieved and more effectively achieved" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "outside of Twitter world? Well, I think all we have is our attention in the end. And we just have to notice what these various tools are doing to it. And it's just, it became very clear to me that in the end, it was an unrewarding use of my attention. Now, it's not to say there isn't some digital platform that's conceivable that would be useful and rewarding, but yeah, I mean, we just have, you know, our life has doled out to us in moments and we have, and we're continually solving this riddle of what is gonna suffice to make this moment engaging, and meaningful, and aligned with who I wanna be now and how I want the future to look, right? We have this tension between being in the present and becoming in the future. And, you know, it's a seeming paradox. Again, it's not really a paradox, but it can seem like, I do think the ground truth for personal wellbeing is to find a mode of being where you can pay attention to the present moment, and this is, you know, meditation by another name, you can pay attention to the present moment with sufficient, you know, gravity, that you recognize that just consciousness itself in the present moment, no matter what's happening, is already a circumstance of freedom and contentment and tranquility. Like, you can be happy now before anything happens, before this next desire gets gratified, before this next problem gets solved. There's this kind of ground truth that you're free, that consciousness is free and open and unencumbered by really any problem until you get lost in thought" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "about all the problems that may yet be real for you. So the ability to catch and observe consciousness," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that in itself is a source of happiness. Yeah, without being lost in thought. And so this happens haphazardly for people who don't meditate because they find something in their life that's so captivating, it's so pleasurable, it's so thrilling. It can even be scary, but it can be even being scared is captivated. Like, it gets their attention, right? Whatever it is. You know, Sebastian Younger wrote a great book about people's experience in war here. You know, strangely it can be the best experience anyone's ever had because everything, it's like only the moment matters, right? Like the bullet is whizzing by your head. You're not thinking about your 401k or that thing that you didn't say last week to the person you shouldn't have been talking about. You're not thinking about Twitter. It's like, you're just fully immersed in the present moment. Meditation is the only way, I mean, that word can mean many things to many people, but what I mean by meditation is simply the discovery that there is a way to engage the present moment directly regardless of what's happened, and you don't need to be in a war, you don't need to be having sex, you don't need to be on drugs, you don't need to be surfing, It doesn't have to be a peak experience, it can be completely ordinary, but you can recognize that in some basic sense there's only this and everything else is something you're thinking. You're thinking about the past, you're thinking about the future, and thoughts themselves have no substance, right? It's fundamentally mysterious that any thought ever really commandeers your sense of who you are and makes you anxious or afraid or angry or whatever it is. And the more you discover that, the half-life of all these negative emotions that blow all of us around get much, much shorter, right? And you can literally just, you know, the anger that would have kept you angry for hours or days lasts, you know, four seconds, because you just, the moment it arises, you recognize it and you can get off. You can decide, at minimum you can decide whether it's useful to stay angry at that moment. And, you know, obviously it usually isn't. And the illusion of free will is one of those thoughts. Yeah, it's all just happening, right? Like, even the mindful and meditative response to this is just happening, happening. It's just, like, even the moments where you recognize or not recognize is just happening. It's not that the, this does open up a degree of freedom for a person, but it's not a freedom that gives any motivation to the notion of free will." }, { "from": "human", "value": "it's just a new way of being in the world. Is there a difference between intellectually knowing free will as an illusion and really experiencing it? What's the longest you've been able to experience," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the escape the illusion of free will? Well, it's always obvious to me when I pay attention. When I, whenever I'm mindful of the term of jargon in the Buddhist and increasingly outside the Buddhist context is mindfulness, right? But they're sort of different levels of mindfulness and there's different degrees of insight into this. But yeah, so what I'm calling evidence of lack of free will and lack of the self. I've got two sides of the same coin. There's a sense of being a subject in the middle of experience to whom all experience refers. The sense of I, the sense of me. And that's almost everybody's starting point when they start to meditate. That's almost always the place people live most of their lives from. I do think that gets interrupted in ways that get unrecognized. I think people are constantly losing the sense of eye. They're losing the sense of subject, object, distance, but they're not recognizing it. And meditation is the mode in which you can recognize. You can both consciously precipitate it. You can look for the self and fail to find it, and then recognize its absence. And that's just the flip side of the coin of free will. I mean, the feeling of having free will is what it feels like to feel like a self who's thinking his thoughts and doing his actions and intending his intentions. And the man in the middle of the boat who's rowing, that's the false starting point. When you find that there's no one in the middle of the boat, right? In fact, there's no boat. There's just the river. There's just the flow of experience. And there's no center to it. And there's no place from which you would control it. Again, even when you're doing things, this does not negate the difference between voluntary and involuntary behavior. It's like I can voluntarily reach for this. But when I'm paying attention, I'm aware that everything is just happening. Like just the intention to move is just a rising, right? and I'm in no position to know why it didn't arise a moment before, or a moment later, or a moment, or, you know, 50% stronger, or weaker, or, you know, so as to be ineffective, or to be doubly effective, where I lurched for it, versus I moved slow. I mean, I'm a not, I can never run the counterfactuals. I can never, I mean, all of this opens the door to an even more disconcerting picture along the same lines, which is, subsumes this conversation about free will, and it's the question of whether anything is ever possible. Like, what if, this is a question I haven't thought a lot about it, but it's been a few years. I've been kicking this question around. So, I mean, what if only the actual is possible? What if there was, what if, was, do we live with this feeling of possibility? We live with the sense that, you know, I have two daughters, I could have had a third child, right? So what does it mean to say that I could have had a third child? Or so you don't have kids, I don't think?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "So- Not that I know of. Yes." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The possibility might be there. So what do we mean when we say, you could have had a child, or you might have a child in the future? Like what is the space in reality, what's the relationship between possibility and actuality and reality? Is there a reality in which non-actual things are nonetheless real? And so we have other categories of like non-concrete things. We have things that don't have spatial temporal dimension, but they nonetheless exist. So like, you know, the integers, right? So numbers, there's a reality, there's an abstract reality to numbers. And this is, it's philosophically interesting to think about these things. So they're not like, in some sense they're real, and they're not merely invented by us, they're discovered because they have structure that we can't impose upon them, right? It's not like, they're not fictional characters like, you know, Hamlet and Superman also exist in some sense, but they exist at a level of our own fiction and abstraction. But it's like, they're true and false statements you can make about Hamlet. They're true and false statements you can make about Superman. Because our fiction, the fictional worlds we've created have a certain kind of structure. But again, this is all abstract. It's all abstractable from any of its concrete instantiations. It's not just in the comic books and just in the movies. It's in our ongoing ideas about these characters. But natural numbers or the integers don't function quite that way. I mean, they're similar, but they also have a structure that's purely a matter of discovery. You can't just make up whether numbers are prime. You know, if you give me two integers of a certain size, let's see, you mentioned two enormous integers. If I were to say, okay, well, between those two integers, they're exactly 11 prime numbers, right? That's a very specific claim about which I can be right or wrong and whether or not anyone knows I'm right or wrong. Like that's just, there's a domain of facts there, but these are abstract, it's an abstract reality that relates in some way that's philosophically interesting, you know, metaphysically interesting to what we call real reality, you know, the spatial temporal order, the physics of things. But possibility, at least in my view, occupies a different space. And this is something, again, my thoughts on this are pretty inchoate. And I think I need to talk to a philosopher of physics and or a physicist about how this may interact with things like the many worlds interpretation of quantum." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, like that's an interesting, right, exactly. So I wonder if discoveries in physics, like further proof or more concrete proof that many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics has some validity," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "if that completely starts to change things. But even that's just more actuality. So if I took that seriously, sure, that's a case of, and truth is that happens even, even if the many worlds interpretation isn't true, but we just imagine we have a physically infinite universe, the implication of infinity is such that things will begin to repeat themselves, you know, the farther you go in space, right? So, you know, if you just head out in one direction, eventually you're gonna meet two people just like us having a conversation just like this, and you're gonna meet them an infinite number of times in every, you know, infinite variety of permutations, slightly different from this conversation, right? So I mean, infinity is just so big that our intuitions of probability completely break down. But what I'm suggesting is maybe probability isn't a thing, right, maybe there's only actuality. Maybe there's only what happens. And at every point along the way, our notion of what could have happened or what might have happened is just that, it's just a thought about what could have happened" }, { "from": "human", "value": "or might have happened. It might've happened. about the different thing. If you can imagine a thing that doesn't make it real, because that's" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "where that possibility exists, is in your imagination. Right? Yeah, and possibility itself is a kind of spooky idea, because it too has a sort of structure, right? So if I'm going to say, you could have had a daughter last year, so we're saying that's possible, but not actual, right? That is a claim. There are things that are true and not true about that daughter, right? It has a kind of structure. It's like-" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I feel like there's a lot of fog around the possibility. It feels almost like a useful" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "narrative. What does it mean? If we say, I just did that, but it's conceivable that I wouldn't have done that, right? It's possible that I just threw this cap, but I might not have done" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that. So you're taking it very temporarily close to the original. What would appear as a decision?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Whenever we're saying something's possible, but not actual, right? This thing just happened, but it's possible that it wouldn't have happened or that it would have happened differently. In in what does that possibility consist? Like where is that? For that to be real, for the possibility to be real," }, { "from": "human", "value": "what claim are we making about the universe? Well, isn't that an extension of the idea that free will is an illusion, that all we have is sexuality," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that the possibility is an illusion? Right, yeah, I'm just extending it beyond human action. Like this goes to the physics of things, this is just everything. Like we're always telling ourselves a story" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that includes possibility." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Possibility is really compelling for some reason. Well, yeah, well, because it's, I mean, so this, yeah, I mean, this could sound just academic, but every backward looking regret or disappointment and every forward looking worry is completely dependent on this notion of possibility. Like every regret is based on the sense that something else, I could have done something else, something else could have happened. Every disposition to worry about the future is based on the feeling that there's this range of possibilities, it could go either way. And whether or not there's such a thing as possibility, I'm convinced that worry is almost never psychologically appropriate, because the reality is in any given moment, either you can do something to solve the problem you're worried about or not. So if you can do something, just do it. And if you can't, your worrying is just causing you to suffer twice over, right? You're gonna get the medical procedure next week anyway. How much time between now and next week do you wanna spend worrying about it, right?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "It's gonna, the worry doesn't accomplish anything." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How much do physicists think about possibility? Well, they think about it in terms of probability more often, but probability just describes, and again, this is a place where I might be out of my depth and need to talk to somebody to debunk this, but the- You can do therapy with a physicist. Yeah, but probability, it seems, just describes a pattern of actuality that we've observed, right? I mean, there's certain things we observe, and those are the actual things that have happened. And we have this additional story about probability. I mean, we have the frequency with which things happen, have happened in the past. I can flip a fair coin and know, I know in the abstract that I have a belief that in the limit, those flips, those tosses should converge on 50% heads and 50% tails. I know I have a story as to why it's not gonna be exactly 50% within any arbitrary timeframe. But in reality, all we ever have are the observed tosses, right? And then we have an additional story that, oh, it came up heads, but it could have come up tails. Why do we think about that last toss? And what are we claiming is true about the physics of things" }, { "from": "human", "value": "if we say it could have been otherwise? I think we're claiming that probability is true, that it just allows us to have a nice model about the world." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It gives us hope about the world, about the world. It seems that possibility has to be somewhere to be effective. It's a little bit like what's happening with the laws. There's something metaphysically interesting about the laws of nature, too, because so the laws of nature impose their work on the world, right? We see their evidence, but they're not reducible to any specific set of instances, right? So there's some structure there, but the structure isn't just a matter of the actual things. We have the actual billiard balls that are banging into each other. All of that actuality can be explained by what actual things are actually doing, But then we have this notion that in addition to that, we have the laws of nature that are making, they're explaining this, but how are the laws of nature an additional thing? In addition to just the actual things that are actually effect-causingy, and if they are an additional thing, how are they effectives if they're not among" }, { "from": "human", "value": "the actual things that are just actually banging around?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "To some degree. For that possibility has to be hiding somewhere for the laws on nature to be-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "To be possible. For anything to be possible," }, { "from": "human", "value": "It has to be, it has to have- It's a closet somewhere, I'm sure," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "where all the possibility goes." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It has to be attached to something, so. You don't think many worlds is that? Yeah, or-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Because many worlds still exists. Yeah, or- Because many worlds still exists. Well, because we're in this strand of that multiverse. Yeah. Right, so it's still, you have just a local instance of what is actual. Yeah. And then if it proliferates elsewhere where you can't be affected by it, many worlds has-" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Or as well. Yeah, yeah. Many worlds has- Or as well. You can't really connect with the other." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so many worlds are just a statement of basically everything that can happen, happens somewhere, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, maybe that's not an entirely kosher formulation of it, but it seems pretty close. So, but there's whatever happens, right? In fact, there's, you know, relativistically, there's a, you know, the Einstein's original notion of a block universe seems to suggest this. And it's been a while since I've been in a conversation with a physicist where I've gotten a chance to ask about the standing of this concept in physics currently. I don't hear it discussed much, but the idea of a block universe is that, you know, space-time exists as a totality and our sense that we are traveling through space-time where there's a real difference between the past and the future, that that's an illusion of just our, you know, the weird slice we're taking of this larger object. But on some level, it's like, you know, you're reading a novel, the last page of the novel exists just as much as the first page. We, when you're in the middle of it, and they're just, you know, if that's, if we're living in anything like that, then there's no such thing as possibility. I would, it would seem there's just what is actual. So as a matter of our experience, moment to moment, I think it's totally compatible with that being true, that there is only what is actual. And that sounds to the naive ear, that sounds like it would be depressing and disempowering and confining, but it's anything but. It's actually, it's a circumstance of pure discovery. Like you have no idea what's gonna happen next, right? You don't know who you're gonna be tomorrow. You're only by tendency, seeming to resemble yourself from yesterday. And there's way more freedom in all of that than it seems true to many people. And yet the basic insight is that you're not, you're not, the real freedom is the recognition that you're not in control of anything. Everything is just happening," }, { "from": "human", "value": "including your thoughts and intentions and moves." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So life is a process of continuous discovery. You're part of the universe. Yeah, you are just this, I mean, it's the miracle that the universe is illuminated to itself, as itself, where you sit. And you're continually discovering what your life is. And then you have this layer at which you're telling yourself a story that you already know what your life is. And you know exactly who you should be and what's about to happen, or you're struggling to form a confident opinion about all of that. And yet there is this fundamental mystery to everything," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "even the most familiar experience." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "We're all NPCs in a most marvelous video game. Maybe, although my game, my sense of gaming does not run as deep as to know what I'm committing to." }, { "from": "human", "value": "There's a non-playing character, a non-playing... Yeah, non-playing, oh, wow." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yes, you're more of a Mario Kart guy, I tell. Yes, you're a guy, I tell. I went back, I was an original video gamer, but it's been a long time since I... I mean I was there for Pong. I remember when I saw the first Pong in a restaurant. I think it was, like, Benny Hans or something, that had a Pong table. And that was... Isn't this amazing?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "It was an amazing moment... Isn't it amazing that you Sam Harris might live from Pong" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to the invention and deployment of a super intelligent system?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Oh, that'll happen fast, if it happens anytime in my lifetime. to AGI, what kind of things do you do purely for fun that others might consider a waste" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of time? I..." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Purely for fun. Because meditation doesn't count because most people say that's not a waste of time. Is there something like Pong that's a deeply embarrassing thing you would never admit?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I don't think... Well, I mean, once or twice a year, I will play a round of golf, which many people would find embarrassing. They might even find my play embarrassing, but it's fine. Do you find it embarrassing? No. I love golf just takes way too much time, so I can only squander a certain amount of time on it. I do love it. It's a lot of fun." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But it's fun. Do you find it embarrassing? Well, you have no control over your actual performance." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You're ever-discovering, you're ever-discovering. I do have control over my mediocre performance, but I don't have enough control as to make it really good. But happily, I'm in the perfect spot because I don't invest enough time in it to care how I play." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So I just have fun when I play. Well, I hope there'll be a day where you play a round of golf with the former president" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Donald Trump, and I would love to be. I would bet on him if we played golf." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm sure he's in better golf. Amidst the chaos of human civilization in modern times, as we've talked about, what gives you hope about this world in the coming year, in the coming decade, in the coming hundred years, maybe a thousand years?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's the source of hope for you? Well, it comes back to a few of the things we've talked about. I know that most people are good and are mostly converging on the same core values. We're not surrounded by psychopaths, and the thing that finally convinced me to get off Twitter was how different life was seeming through the lens of Twitter. I just got the sense that there's way more psychopaths or effective psychopaths than I realized, and then I thought, okay, this isn't real. This is either a strange context in which actually decent people are behaving like psychopaths or it's a bot army or something that I don't have to take seriously. So yeah, I just think most people, if we can get the incentives right, I think there's no reason why we can't really thrive collectively. There's enough wealth to go around, there's no effective limit, I mean, again, within the limits of what's physically possible, but we're nowhere near the limit on abundance. I forget about going to Mars, on this, the one rock. We could make this place incredibly beautiful and stable if we just did enough work to solve" }, { "from": "human", "value": "some rather long-standing political problems. The problem of incentives, so to you, the basic characteristics of human nature such" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that we'll be okay if the incentives are okay, we'll do pretty good. I'm worried about the asymmetries that it's easier to break things than to fix them, it's easier to light a fire than to put it out. I do worry that as technology gets more and more powerful, it becomes easier for the minority who wants to screw things up to effectively screw things up for everybody. It's easier, a thousand years ago, it was simply impossible for one person to derange the lives of millions, much less billions, millions, now that's getting to be possible. On the assumption that we're always going to have a sufficient number of crazy individuals or malevolent individuals, we have to figure out that asymmetry somehow, and so there's some cautious exploration of emergent technology that we need to get our head screwed on straight about and gain a function of research. Just how much do we want to democratize all the relevant technologies there? You really want to give everyone the ability to order nucleotides in the mail and give them the blueprints for viruses online because you're a free speech absolutist and you think all PDFs need to be exportable everywhere. This is where there are limits to, many people are confused about my take on free speech because I've come down on the unpopular side of some of these questions, but my overriding concern is that in many cases, I'm worried about the free speech of individual businesses or individual platforms or individual media people to decide that they don't want to be associated with certain things. If you own Twitter, I think you should be able to kick off the Nazi you don't want to be associated with because it's your platform, you own it. That's your free speech. That's the side of my free speech concern for Twitter. It's not that every Nazi has the right to algorithmic speech on Twitter. I think if you own Twitter, whether it's just Elon or in the world where it wasn't Elon, the people who own Twitter and the board and the shareholders and the employees, these people should be free to decide what they want to promote or not. I view them as publishers more than as platforms in the end and that has other implications, but I do worry about this problem of misinformation and algorithmically and otherwise supercharged misinformation and I do think we're at a bottleneck now. I guess it could be the hubris of every present generation to think that their moment is especially important, but I do think with the emergence of these technologies, we're at some kind of bottleneck where we really have to figure out how to get this right. If we do get this right, if we figure out how to not drive ourselves crazy by giving people access to all possible information, misinformation at all times, I think, yeah," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "there's no limit to how happily we could collaborate with billions of creative fulfilled people. It's just-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And trillions of robots, some of them sex robots, but that's another topic. That's another topic." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Robots that are running the right algorithm, whatever that algorithm is. Whatever you need in your life to make you happy. The first time we talked is one of the huge honors of my life. I've been a fan of yours for a long time. The few times you were respectful but critical to me means the world and thank you so much for helping me and caring enough and caring enough about the world and for everything you do. But I should say that the few of us that try to put love in the world on Twitter miss you on Twitter, but- Well, enjoy yourselves." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Don't break anything, kids. Enjoy yourselves. Don't break anything, kids. Have a good party without me. Thanks for watching. Very happy to do this. Thanks for the invitation." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Thank you. Great to see you again. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sam Harris. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Martin Luther King, Jr. Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "And the core to you making a good effective decision on what you should do with your life, lifestyle, health, diet, whatever, is to ground that in data. So the core to the allergy thing is data. The core to everything inside tracker does is data. I'm really excited about personalized data, driven advice for how to make your life better. Get special savings for a limited time when you go to inside tracker.com slash Lex. This is a Lex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Chris Voss. What is it like negotiating for a hostage with a kidnapper?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What is the toughest part of that process? The toughest part is if it looks bad from the beginning and you gotta engage in a process anyway." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What are the factors that make it bad? That makes you nervous that if you were to observe a situation where there's general negotiation or it's a hostage negotiation," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "what makes you think that this is going to be difficult? If they wanna make it look like they're negotiating, but they're not. Like in the 2004 timeframe, Al Qaeda in Iraq was executing people on camera for the publicity. And they wanted to make it look like they were negotiating. So they'd come on and they say, if you don't get all the women out of, Iraqi women out of the jails in Iraq in 72 hours, we're gonna kill a hostage. That was one of the demands in one of the cases in that timeframe. Now, first of all, even if we'd have been willing, the US government coalition would have been willing to do that, it wouldn't have been able to happen in 72 hours. So is it an impossible ask from the beginning? And so then that looks really bad. Like they're trying to make it look like they're talking reasonably, but they're not. So your hostage is in bad shape there. If they've made a demand that you just, even if you wanted to do, you couldn't do. So then what makes that very difficult is," }, { "from": "human", "value": "in kidnappings especially," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but they're not, you're working with family members, you're coaching people. Bad guys are in touch with family members, or if they're not directly in touch with family members, the other thing that Al Qaeda was doing at that time was, they didn't give us a way to talk to them. They're making statements in the media, but then not leaving their phone number, if you will. So that's one more thing. They're intentionally blocking you. They're asking you to do something you can't do. They're not giving you a way to talk to them. So you gotta get with the family and discuss with the family how you're gonna approach things. Now the family definitely wants to know, is this gonna help? So a bunch of cases like that in that timeframe. And you gotta be honest with them. It's a long shot. Our chances here are slim and none. And when it's slim and none, I'll take slim, but it's still very, very slim. And there were a number of people that were killed in that timeframe before the tide finally got turned." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And it was hard dealing with families at the time. Can you negotiate in public versus like a direct channel in private?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Oh yeah. Bad guys pick the media. They're making statements in the media. And that's a big clue. Their channel of choice tells you an awful lot. And if they're choosing the media, then that means people are trying to appeal to, that means there, in their view, there's such a thing is good media. So if there's good media, there's bad media. How do you make it bad? And we made a bad form. That just, unfortunately, it had to go through a number of iterations" }, { "from": "human", "value": "before they got the message and quit. In that negotiation, do you think about the value of human life? Is there a dollar figure? Is there, how do you enumerate, not enumerate, quantify the value of human life?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, that's like beauty, it's any other beholder. So that was the first lesson on any hostage negotiation, really any negotiation. Like it doesn't matter what it is to you, matters what it is to the other side. One of the things, especially in your conversation I listened to with Andrew. By the way, you guys, another thing I really liked about that conversation, first of all, I think the world of him. Andrew Huberman. Yeah, Andrew Huberman. And he released it on my birthday. I appreciate that. It was a nice birthday for me. Tried to tell him perfectly just for you, yeah. Yeah, nice job, thank you. But empathy is in the eye of the beholder, in every negotiation, whether it's over a car, a house, collaboration in your company with the bad guys. How does the other side see it? Now, the nice thing about kidnapping for ransom, if there's an actual ransom demand," }, { "from": "human", "value": "an actual demand, there's a nice birthday present to me." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Perfectly just for you, yeah. It's a mercenary's business. They're gonna take what they could get. And they tend to be really good at figuring out how much money somebody has. So, and again, I'll keep drawing business analogies. You're looking for a job with an employer. There's a market price of the job, and then there's what the employer can pay you. Now, maybe the market price of the job, the market's 150 grand. Employer can pay 120, but it's a great job. We were talking about Elon a minute ago. I'd work minimum wage to follow him around. That would be worth it. What are the value other than the dollars? And how hard is it to get the dollars? And how quickly can you get to them? Those are all things that the bad guys are good, and kidnapping are good at figuring out. So, the value of human life to them is gonna be what can they get. A crazy thing in the kidnap business. We used to get asked by FBI leadership, when is this gonna be over? And the answer would be, when the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they can, by dissecting that statement, you're talking about when they feel like they got everything they can. So, the key to kidnapping negotiations are the feelings. Are the bad guys, we're talking about feelings!" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Kidnapping is feelings." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the field, which drives everything. Doesn't matter what human endeavor it is. So it's not reason, it's emotion." }, { "from": "human", "value": "There's no such thing as reason. I should say, for a little bit of context, I just talked yesterday with a guy named Sam Harris. Yeah. I don't know if you know Sam, but Sam, and because I was preparing for a conversation with you, I talked about empathy versus reason. And he lands heavily on reason. Empathy is somewhere between useless and erroneous and leads you astray and is not effective. That reason is the only way forward." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, let's draw some fine lines there. And the two fine lines I would draw is, first, what is your definition of empathy? And then secondly, how do people actually make up their minds? And I'm gonna flip it. I'm gonna go with how people make up their minds. You make up your mind based on what you care about, period. That makes reason, emotion-based. What do you care about? You start with what you care about. You see some guys swimmin' out in, off the coast of the ocean and you see a shark comin' up behind. Who you're cheering for? If it's Adolf Hitler out there, you're cheerin' for the shark. You might actually feel bad for the shark, cuz it's gonna taste bad." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Who do you care about? Who do you care about?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You mean the human will taste bad? Yeah, he eats Adolf Hitler. It's you're gonna leave a bad taste in your mouth, even if you're a shark. So you're making up your mind on every circumstance that's based on what you care about. So then what does that do to reason? Your reason is based on what you care about from the beginning. Now then empathy, if you define it as sympathy, which it was never meant to be sympathy ever. Etymology, I think is the word. I keep getting etymology and entomology mixed up. Etymology being, where words came from? origin, entomology being bugs. Got it. So I like etymology. Where did something come from? I also like entomology. Anyway, etymology. My understanding from my research, the original definition of empathy was an interpretation of a German word where people were trying to figure out what the artist was trying to convey. It was about assessing art. And so it was always about understanding where somebody was coming from, but not sharing necessarily the same thing. So then when I was with D.F. Beyond, I first started collaborating with Harvard. Bob Manukin wrote a book, Beyond Winning, Second Chapters, The Tension Between Empathy and Assertiveness. Still the best chapter on empathy I've ever read anywhere. And Bob writes in his book, Bob was the head of the program on negotiation. He's also agreed to be interviewed for a documentary about me and my company that hasn't been released yet, but it should be released sometime this year. What's the name of the documentary? Tactical Empathy. Good name. So Bob's definition of empathy said not agreeing or even liking the other side. Don't even gotta like them. Don't gotta agree with them. Just straight understanding where they're coming from and articulating it, which requires no agreement whatsoever. That becomes a very powerful tool, like ridiculously powerful. And if sympathy or compassion or agreement are not included, you can be empathic with anybody. I was thinking about this when I was getting ready to sit down and talk to you because you use the word empathy a lot. I can be empathic with Putin. Easy. It's easy. I don't agree with where he's coming from. I don't agree with his methodology. Early on the Ukraine-Russian war, I saw an article that was very dismissive of Russia that said Russia's basically Europe's gas station. And I thought, all right. So if you're in charge and the way you feed your people is via an industry that the entire world is trying to quit, Europe's gas station, the whole world is trying to get out of fossil fuels. If that's how you feed your people, if you don't come up with an answer to that, the people that you've taken a responsibility for are going to die alone in the cold and the dark. They're going to freeze and they're going to die. All right. So that doesn't mean that I agree with where he's coming from or any of his means. But how does this guy see things in his distorted word? You're never going to get through to somebody like that in a conversation unless you can demonstrate to them, you understand where they're coming from, whether or not you agree. Early 90s, last century. I'm a last century guy. I'm an old dude. I refer to myself as a last century guy. Also a deeply flawed human. So terrorist case, New York City, civilian court, terrorism does not have to be tried in military tribunals. That's a very bad idea. It was always bad. The FBI was always against it. I'm getting ready. We have Muslims testifying in open court against a legitimate Muslim cleric. The guy that was on trial had the credentials as a legitimate Muslim cleric. The people that were testifying against him didn't think he should be advocating murder of innocent people. We'd sit down with them, Arab Muslims, Egyptians, mostly. And I would say to them, you believe that there's been a succession of American governments for the last 200 years that are anti Islam and they shake their head and go, and that'd be the start of the conversation. That's empathy. That's empathy. You believe this to be the case. I never said I agreed, I never said I disagreed, but I'd showed him that I wasn't afraid of their beliefs, I was so unafraid of them that I was willing to just state them and not disagree or contradict. Because I would say that and then I'd shut up and let them react. And I never had to say, here's why you're wrong. I never gave my point of view. Every single one of them that testified, that's empathy. Not agreeing with where the other side is coming from. I'm not sure how Sam would define it. But common vernacular is its sympathy and its compassion, and that's when it becomes" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "useless. And there's a gray area, maybe you can comment on it, is sometimes a drop of compassion helps make that empathy more effective in the conversation. So you're just saying you believe" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "x doesn't quite form a strong of a bond with the other person, the other person." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You're imagining it doesn't. Maybe you're right, yes, I'm imagining it doesn't. I'm imagining you need to show that you're on the same side. You need to signal a little bit about your actual beliefs, at least in that moment, even if that signaling is not as deep as it sounds. But at first, basically patting the person on the back and saying, we're on the same side, brother." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You know, that's what most people, when they're really learning the concept, that's the basic human reaction. And in application, especially in highly adversarial situations, like, I need a regular guy, Muslim, but how's that guy going to say, buy it if I like, you know, dude, I'm on your side. I've been there. I feel you. No, no, no, no, no, no. People get conned by that so much. Like if we're on opposite sides of the table, and I try to act like I'm not on the opposite side of the table, that makes me disingenuous. So I would rather be honest. My currency is integrity. And at some point in time, if you go like, you know where I'm coming from? My answer is going to be like, look, I can agree on maybe where we're going. But if we're talking about, you know, am I on your side now? As a human being, I want to see you survive and thrive, not at my expense. I think the world is full of opportunity. I'm optimistic. And I got more than enough reason for saying that. It's enough for here for both of us. So I got no problem with you getting yours. You know, just don't take it out of my hide. And I'm going to be honest about it, about both of those things. I'm not interested in you taking it out of my hide. I think there's plenty here for both of us. Now, I don't need to be on your side, except in a human sense. But do I have to side with you over the war? No. Or how we're distributing the stock, or how much you get paid, or how much you make off this car. I think people, my experience as a layman, is that empathy is not got a downside. That you don't need me to act like" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm on your side for us to make a great deal. Great deal. Well, we'll talk about two things, a great deal and a great conversation. They're often going to be the same thing, but at times they're going to be different. You mentioned Vladimir Putin. There is some zoom level at which you do want to say we're on the same side. You said the human level. It's possible to say, kind of zoom out and say that we're all in this together. Not we Slavic people, we Europeans," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but we human beings. Well, the same planet. Same planet. Right. Several years ago, and his name has evidently been mud now, but he was very nice to me. A lawyer here in a town named Tom Girardi, and no shortage of bad reporting on him now. I have absolutely no idea if any of it's true. I do know that in my interaction with him, he was always a gentleman to me and was very generous. When he'd get into conversations with people, he'd always say, let's look at 10 years from now, where we could both be in a phenomenal place together. Now let's work our way back from there. That's a good line. Yeah. And then I saw him do it in simulations. I was teaching at USC. We were at a function together and a gentleman at the time told me that who he was and he was really influential. So I walked up to the guy, Cold that I said, Hey, I'm going to come into talking to my class, he didn't know me. I learned the fact that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "we had mutual acquaintance and he graciously consented to come in." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. And he said, what do you want me to talk about? And I said, look, dude, just from your success here, it doesn't matter what you talk about, either I'm going to agree or I'm going to disagree, or I'm going to learn from it, my students are going to learn from it. So students want to role play with them. They dispute and let's do a negotiation. Every single time you'd go to pick a point in the future where we're both happy 10 years, 20 years from now, and let's work our way back. Now, hostage negotiator, same thing. I call into a bank, bad guy picks up on the phone, and I'm going to say, I want you to live. I want to see you survive this. Whatever else goes with that, let's pick a point in the future that we're both good with, and then we work our way back. And people make also, we were talking before about emotion and what you care about, people make their decisions based on their vision of the future. Without question, I think there's a Hindu temple in the United States has been or being assembled the same way that the Hindu temples were in India a thousand years ago, by hand, volunteers, by hand. These people are knocking themselves on for place in paradise, a vision of the future. What you will go through today, if the future portends what you want, you'll go through incredible things today. It's a vision of the" }, { "from": "human", "value": "future. So you have to try to paint a vision of the future that the person you're negotiating" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with will like. Just top to do. Yeah. Let's find out what their vision of the future is, is, and then remove yourself as a threat. If we can collaborate together at all, if you think that I could do anything at all to help you to that point, and integrity is my currency, I'm not going to lie to you, which gets back before that I lied to you about whether or not I'm on your side. Right now, at the moment, we're on opposite sides of the fence. That's not going to stop us from being together in the future. You're going to say, well, you didn't lie to me about today, maybe you won't lie to" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "me about tomorrow. Going back to world leaders, for example, whether it's Vladimir Zelensky or Vladimir" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Putin, you don't think it closes off their mind to show that you have a different opinion? Depending upon when you showed it. Are you arguing from the beginning, or are you displaying understanding from the beginning? I don't think it stops you from being adversarial. That was the thing about Manukin's chapter in his book, The Tension Between Empathy and Assertiveness. I remember reading that name of the chapter thinking like, eh, in my business, there is no tension. Then I got into it and I read, I thought, this is a red herring. He's drawing people in, because his entire chapter is that empathy puts you in a position to assert, and that there is no tension." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's a sequencing issue, and that's why, again, I think it was written for lawyers. There is no tension. Yeah. Sequencing issue. The timing is everything. You emphasize the importance in terms of sequencing and priority of listening, of truly listening to the other person. Right. I'm sorry. What did you say? That was a bad joke. Sorry. Your timing is just perfect. How do you listen? How do you truly listen to another human being? How do you notice them? How do you really hear them?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I always hated the term active listening. If anything, it's proactive. As soon as you start to try to anticipate where somebody is going, you're dialed in, because along the way, either you're congratulating yourself for being right, or, when suddenly they say something that surprises you, you really notice it. That's not what I expected. You're dialed in, you're listening. proactive. And then one of the reasons we named the book, Tactical Empathy, named the book, never split the difference, but we're talking about tactical empathy, calibrated emotional intelligence. What's a calibrated? First, it was experienced as hostage negotiators, and we've come to find out that our experience as hostage negotiators is backed up by neuroscience. Another reason why I listen to Andrew Huberman's podcast all the time, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy on the neuroscience. And so then emotional intelligence calibrated by what we know about neuroscience. What do we know about neuroscience? And I'll talk about it from a layman's perspective and even say we's an arrogant thing, human beings. I didn't do the research. I'm scooping up as much of it as I can as a layman. The brain's largely negative. I think there's ample evidence, people would argue with you as to what the wiring is and what does what, and the limbic system and all of that. But the brain is basically 75% negative. As an layman, I make that contention, number one. Number two, the best way to deactivate negativity is by calling it out. And I could say, look, I don't want you to be offended by what I'm getting ready to say. That's a denial. Your guard is up, you're getting ready to get mad. If I say, what I'm getting ready to say is probably going to offend you. Now you relax a little bit and you go, all right, what is it? And then I say it, whatever it is, and you're going to be like, oh, that wasn't that bad. Because we knew from hostage negotiation by calling out the negativity deactivated, and then a number of neuroscience experiments have been done right and left by calling out negativity," }, { "from": "human", "value": "deactivating the negative. Calling out ahead of time. So acknowledging that this is ahead of time," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that this is going to hurt. The experiments that I've seen have been when the negativity was inflicted and then having a person that it was being inflicted upon simply identify it. Just identify. Yeah, what are you feeling? I'm angry and the anger goes away." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's tough because I've had a few, and again, we're dancing between things, but I've had a few conversations where anger arose in the guest I spoke with. Yeah. And I'm not sure identifying it. That's like leaning into it and going into the depths, because that's going into the depths of some emotional psychological thing they're going through that I'm not sure I want to explore that iceberg with a little ship we got. You have to decide, do you want to avoid it or do you want to lean into it? It's a tough choice. See, elephant in the room. It is an elephant in the room. It is an elephant, especially when I think that's the big difference between conversations and negotiations. Negotiation ultimately is looking for closure and resolution. I think general conversations like this is more exploring. There's not necessarily a goal." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Put it on the room." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Like if you were to put it, like if I had to put a goal for this conversation, there's no real goal. It's curiously exploring ideas. So that gives you freedom to not call out the elephant. But for time, you could be like, all right, let's go to the next room, get a snack, and come back to the elephant. Right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "All right, so I'd make a tiny adjustment on the negotiation definition. Sure. Because you said, I think, seeking closure. You used two words, and closure was one of them." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Goals, maybe another. Well, yeah, what is negotiation?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, I would say seeking collaboration. And because closure kind of puts a little bit of a finality to it and a real problem. And any negotiation is always implementation. That's why we say yeses. I say yeses is nothing without how. And yes, at its very best, is only temporary aspiration. It's aspirational. It's usually counterfeit." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So if you're looking for, okay? That's a good line. Yeses is usually counterfeit. It's aspirational without the how. Yeah. It's just a good line. Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Thank you. Now we're working on it. I was practicing. In front of the mirror for a few minutes today. Doing pretty good." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Doing pretty good. You got a bright future, I think. You should write a book or something." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Your book is excellent. Your book, by the way. Thanks. Appreciate that. What am I doing here, anyway?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "This, on Earth, in general, with you. I don't know. We're collaborating." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Why me, though? Why'd you want to talk to him?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I've heard you speak in a few places. I was like, this is a fascinating human. I think on Clubhouse, in different places, and I listen to some YouTube stuff, and this is just you've meet people that are interesting. That's what I love doing with this podcast, is just exploring the mind of an interesting person. You notice people. Sometimes there's a homeless person that's outside of 7-Eleven. I notice, who are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. I don't look at the resumes and the credentials and stuff like that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's just being able to notice a person. As I've been leafing through the different choices of the podcast, the young lady that only fans and the sex workers. That's a fascinating human being. I want to know what makes that person tech at 1000%." }, { "from": "human", "value": "The fascinating thing about her is her worldview is almost entirely different than mine, and that's always interesting to talk to a person who just is happy, flourishing, but sees the world, and the set of values she has is completely different. And is also not argumentative, is accepting of other worldviews. It's beautiful to explore that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, yeah, no kidding. I would agree. And then, yeah, thought provoking. Because I consider myself, the word I was looking for before is abundant. I think it's an abundant world. So I'm pretty optimistic. I consider myself, I don't know, happy exactly describes it, but yeah, so then if I'm happy, optimistic, abundant, I got a worldview, and then you run into somebody that has a vastly different worldview, and they're happy, and they think it's abundant too. And you're like, what is going on in your head, or mine, or what am I missing?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, so that's fascinating. And the pie grows, which is useful for kind of negotiation when you paint a picture of a future. If you're optimistic about that future, there's a kind of feeling like we're both going to win here. Exactly. And that's easy. We live in a world where both people can win." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. And in point of fact, that's the case. Although a lot of people want us to think otherwise, mostly because of the negativity that I was talking about before." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So the brain is generally cynical." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. My description of it is, the pessimistic caveman survived. And we're descendants of the pessimists. Yeah. The optimistic guy got eaten by a saber-through tiger." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. But on the flip side, the optimists seem to be the ones that actually build stuff these days." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "There's the switch. So at what point in time do we catch on? Because the difference between survival and success mindset. The success mindset is highly optimistic. So where do we switch or how do we stay switched from survival to success? That's the challenge." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. Somewhere we stopped being eaten by saber-through tigers and started building bridges and buildings and computers and companies." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "We started to experience. We got enough data back to collaborate. And we stopped listening to our amygdala and we started to listen to our gut." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Let me just return briefly to terrorists. What do you think about the policy of not negotiating with terrorists?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, that's not the policy, first of all. Now, everybody thinks that's the policy. Yeah. It hasn't been the policy since 2002 when Bush 43 signed up National Security Presidential Directive, NSPD, at the time it was NSPD 12, which basically said, we won't make concessions. That doesn't mean we won't talk. So I'm in Columbia at the same time and I have been intimately involved with the signing of him signing that document. I knew exactly what it said and he didn't inherit it from somebody else. He signed. And I'm in Columbia and the number two in the embassy says, his last night on TV to president of the United States said, we don't negotiate with terrorists. Are you calling a president in the United States a liar? I remember thinking like, all right, so he probably said that and that's not on the document that he signed. I said, look, I'm familiar with what he signed and that's not what it says. Well, and so the argument. But that's always been the soundfight that everybody likes. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Depends upon your definition of negotiation. If it's just communication, we negotiate with them all the time. Number one and number two, like every president has made some boneheaded deal with the bad guys. Like Obama released five high level Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in exchange for an AWOL soldier that we immediately threw in jail. And I thought that was a horrible deal. And that's putting terrorists back on the battlefield. And then Trump turned around and topped it by putting 5,000 terrorists back on the battlefield. So we haven't had a president that has stuck to that on either side of the aisle" }, { "from": "human", "value": "since people started throwing that out as a soundbite. What do you think of that negotiation? Forget terrorists, but the global negotiation, like with with Vladimir Putin, the recent negotiation over prisoners, the exchange, the Breton Gardner, is there a way to do that" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "negotiation successfully? First of all, I agree with the idea that she was wrongfully detained and that she didn't deserve to be in jail and that there should be no second class citizens, ever. And whether you're a WNBA player or you're just some bonehead that walked into the wrong situation, your government should not abandon you ever, ever. Now what they do in the meantime, there should have been a negotiation. They were desperate to make a deal at a bad time. They'd been offered far better deals than prisoner swaps earlier and turned them down. And then he gets turned up. And thank God for Brittany Greiner that the public got enough attention. They kept pressure on the administration. They made a deal. Now governments want to make those kind of deals. That's fine. As long as it, because that was basically a political negotiation. You're putting 5,000 Taliban back on a battlefield, that ain't negotiating with another government, you're putting five of them back on a battlefield. That ain't negotiating with another government that's directly contradicting this thing that you claimed. And those were all bad deals. Was the Brittany Greiner thing a bad deal? I think it was great for her. If I was in the middle of it," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "it would've been better, and she still would've come home. Yeah, there's some technical aspects of that negotiation. What do you think is the value just to linger on it of meeting in person for the negotiation? I think it's a great idea. Can I just follow that tangent along? There's a war in Ukraine now. It's been going on over a year. It's a great idea. It's for me personally given my life stories is a deeply personal one and I'm returning back to that area of the world that was there. Vladimir Zelensky said he doesn't want to talk to Vladimir Putin. Do you think they could get in a room together and say you were there in a room with Putin and Zelensky and Biden is sitting in the bag drinking a cocktail or maybe he is at the table participating. How is it possible through negotiation, through the art of conversation to find peace in this very tense" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "geopolitical conflict? I think it's eminently possible. I think getting people together in person has always been a good idea. Who's getting them together under what circumstances and how many times you're getting them together? The documentary, The Human Factor about the Mideast Peace and Negotiations, mostly through the 90s, mostly into the Clinton administration got kicked off under Bush 41 and then the documentary continues through Trump, but just touching basically on it. But they're getting Arafat and the different Israeli prime ministers together in person. These guys do not want to talk to each other and depending upon the prime minister, the mere thought of being on the same planet with Arafat was offensive. And they started getting these guys together in parts and regularly and they started seeing each other as human beings. And I started realizing that there was enough room on a planet for them and that people dying was stupid and they would slowly work things out by getting these guys together in person. So how long does it take? Who's hosting it?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "But it's a good idea. But the skill of achieving that thing that you talk about a lot, which is empathy. And I would say in that case, not just empathy, but empathy plus a bit, you might" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "disagree with this, but a drop of compassion in there. I think compassion is helpful, but it's not essential. If you just know where I'm coming from," }, { "from": "human", "value": "the feeling of being understood. Yeah, heard and understood. That's powerful." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. And again, I know I picked a vast majority of this up on Andrew's podcast, but I picked it up in other places. Because early on when we were putting a book together, Tal Raz, the writer, my son uncredited co-author. So the book's really a collaboration between me, my son Brandon and Tal Raz. And we're driving for that's right. When somebody feels like what you've said is completely their position, they say that's right. Not your right, but that's right. So Tal says, I think what's happening here is you're triggering a subtle epiphany in somebody. So I'm like, all right, I'll buy that. So I start looking up the neuroscience of the feeling of epiphany, getting a hit of oxytocin and serotonin. I'm like, all right, I'll buy that. Oxytocin is a bonding drug. You bond to me. I don't bond to you. When you feel completely understood by me, you bond to me. Then in one of the relationship podcasts that I'm listening to on Andrew, it says oxytocin inclines people to tell the truth. You're more honest. All right, so you feel deeply understood by me. You bond to me and you start getting more honest, serotonin, the neurochemical satisfaction, epiphany, you feel oxytocin and serotonin being understood. All right, I got you bonding to me. I got you being more honest with me and I got you feeling more satisfied. So you want less." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What more do you want out of a negotiation? Of course, there's already with the leaders and great negotiators, there's walls built up, defense mechanisms against that, right? You're resisting, you're resisting this basic chemistry, but yes, you should have that. You should work towards that kind of empathy. And I personally believe, I don't actually understand why, but I've observed it time and time again, but getting in a room together and really talking, whether privately or publicly, we're really talking. And like this, so I'll comment on this. So right now, this is being recorded and a few folks will hear this, but when you really do a good job with this kind of conversation, you forget there's cameras. And that's much better than there being even a third person in the room, but often when world leaders meet, there's like press or there's others in the room. Man to man or man to woman, you have to like meet in a saloon, just the two of you, and talk. There's some intimacy and power to that, to achieve that if you're also willing to couple that with empathy, to really hear the other person. I don't know what that is." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's like a deep, deep intimacy that happens. And I think there's actually, cause we get asked this in a black swan group all the time, like how did, you know, zoom, that's bad, you know, cause you don't have the same visual feedback on zoom. And that's not true. Like you and I, I see you from the waist up right now. If we're on zoom, I'd be looking at you from the waist up." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm not wearing pants, yeah. I'm not wearing pants, yeah, with the internet. I apologize for that. Sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. You only see a small portion." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Usually, that's usually where I go. But anyway." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm glad we're both at Ridiculous Center, I appreciate it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But what makes this different in person? I actually think, I think there's energy that we don't have the instrumentation to define yet. And I think that there's a feel. I think there's an actual energetic feel that changes. And just cause, we, again, just cause we can't measure it," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "doesn't mean it's not there. Yeah, I would love to figure out what that is. Folks that are working on virtual reality are trying to figure out what that is. During the pandemic, everybody was on zoom. Zoom and Microsoft everybody was trying to figure out how do we replicate that? I'm trying to understand how to replicate that because it sure is not fun to travel across the world just to talk to Snowden or Putin or Zelensky, I'd love to do it over Zoom, but it's not the same. It's not the same." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's not the same. I go in a room with Putin. You would go in a room? I would, yeah, 1,000%." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I get it that's right, Adam. I would, yeah. That's right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well first you would give him at that site probably. Ah, getting a given. And here's the issue that trips everybody up in negotiation, the difference between hearing and speaking, the same words are vastly different. And what I'm looking for is what the response is I'm getting out of you. Because if you can't, first, that's right especially." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Like if you can't appreciate what that really means, hearing it is unsatisfying. So those two words are really important to you. You talk about this in your book. Why is that so? What does that's right mean?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Why is it important? Well, it means that what you just heard you think is unequivocally the truth. Like it's dead on. It hit the target. It's a bullseye. And it's been a topic of discussion, especially between my son and I, a lot. Like what happens? This oxytocin bonding moment. And his contention has always been like Donald Trump is the poster child of what it means. Because Donald Trump's not addressing an audience, he's in a debate with Hillary or he's giving a speech someplace. And when the people that are devoted to him, when they believe that what he's just said" }, { "from": "human", "value": "is completely right, it's insightful." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What happens? They look at him or they look at the TV and they go, that's right. And it's what people say when they're bought into what they just heard. Now if you're not convinced of the way that Donald Trump's followers are bonded to him, and he also just like this, in my view destroys the idea of common ground. Because when he first started to run for president, the pundits all said, aye, he's a New Yorker. Nobody in the Republican party is going to like him. It's middle America. It's blue collar. It's regular common folks. Factory workers. They're not going to like Trump because he's from New York and he went to Wharton. He's an Ivy leaguer and he's a son of a wealthy real estate mogul and he had a million dollars handed to him when he got out of college. He's born with a silver spoon in his mouth. The rank and five Republicans are never going to accept this guy based on common ground. Look how smart that was." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Do you think he's a good negotiator?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you think Donald Trump is a good negotiator for shade? No, I think he's a great marketer. If you look at his negotiation track record, all right, so I started following Donald Trump in the eighties when I was in New York. I'm a last century guy. He's a last century guy. We've got mutual acquaintances. The minister that married him to Mahler Maples was a friend of mine, a close friend of mine. In 1998, I threw a fundraiser in his apartment at Trump Tower that he attended. No shortage of mutual friends. We went to the same church, still have mutual acquaintances, friends, and have watched his track record, Negotiation History, which is exactly his track record with North Korea. Where are we with North Korea? What was the deal that he made with North Korea? See, your answer is the same as everybody else's. Well, I remember it started out with a lot... I don't know what happened because nothing" }, { "from": "human", "value": "ever happens." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's more public fanfare, so marketing-minded presentation of the situation. Starts out with a bang. If he doesn't cut the deal in a really short period of time, he moves on, and everybody wonders what had happened because there was so much fanfare at the beginning. Now at the beginning, him even opening that dialogue with North Korea was masterful. I was such a fan when you've got a president of the United States that is willing to sit down and talk with a leader of another nation. When every other president, all our advisors are saying, the leader of North Korea is beneath you. You cannot dignify him by responding to him directly. Consequently, the Trump administration inherits a can of worms that has been simmering for 30 years. He didn't get us into that. He opened up a dialogue where nobody else was capable of opening that dialogue, and then it just went away. Nobody knows what happened. There was no deal made. Those negotiators make deals." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What do you think about these accusations that he's a narcissist?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "If you're a narcissist, does that help you or hurt you?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Is there a more popular term these days than narcissists? Everybody's a narcissist. Everybody you don't like is a narcissist." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like the homeless guy down on the corner. He's a narcissist. That's why he's there. It's lost meaning for you a little bit? Yeah. In most psychological terms, as a hostage negotiator, we were never into psychology, and we steered away from it. Psychology at best is soft science. If it's not informed these days, if it's not informed by real studies or neuroscience, the guys that I'm impressed with these days are psychologists and neuroscientists. I'm interested in that guy or gal." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "In a psychology convention, do you get them all together and they all agree? But also the interesting thing about psychology is each individual person is way more complicated than the category psychology tries to create. There's something about the human brain. The moment you classify somebody as a narcissist or depressed or bipolar or insane in any kind of way, for some reason, you give yourself a convenient excuse not to see them as a complicated human being to empathize with them. I had that when I was talking to, I did an interview with Kanye West, and then there's a lot of popular opinions about him being mentally unwell and so on. I felt that that kind of way of thinking is a very convenient way of thinking to ignore the fact that he's a human being that, again, wants to be understood and heard." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's the only way you can have that conversation. Yeah. I agree completely. That's right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm just so close to you now. It might be because I'm not wearing pants. All right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You're funnier than I am. You're funnier than I am. That bothers me." }, { "from": "human", "value": "All right. I'll say something stupid soon enough. Don't worry about it. We were talking about terrorists and non-negotiating with terrorists. Is there something- Nice job going all the way back to where that rabbit hole started. There's where rabbit, where Alice in Wonderland right now. Is there something about walking away of non-negotiating? Is there power in that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "All right. It depends upon whether or not you're doing it with integrity or a tactic to start with. Then also, hostage negotiators are successful 93% of the time, kind of across the board, which means that there's 7% of the time it's going to go bad. That was my old boss, Gary Nestner. I learned so much from Gary, but a phrase that he used over and over and over again until I finally worked the case and went bad was, this is going to be the best chance of success. Best chance of success. Then something went bad and I remember thinking like, well the best chance of success is no guarantee of success. Your question is are there negotiations you should walk away from? If you got no shot at success, then don't negotiate. You have to accept the fact there are some deals you're never going to make. We teach in my company it's not a sin to not get the deal, it's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal. And Gary, in his infinite wisdom, they realized that there was something called suicide by Cobb, and that it might have... Gary was very much into clusters of behavior. He kept us away from psychological terms, and there would be clusters of behavior that would be high-risk indicators. And he wrote a block of instruction called high-risk indicators, which meant if you start seeing this stuff show up, this thing's probably going bad. And you're going to need to recognize that from the very beginning and adjust accordingly. And it's the same way in business and personal life. I'm talking to the head of a marketing company I have tremendous respect for. I admire that what this guy in this company does started from scratch. He borrowed space in the back of a drugstore to start his company, and now it's hugely successful. And he's laying out to me that he finally had to confront a potential client and walk away from him. And he said, how do you think I handle this? And my answer was thousand percent correct. And as a matter of fact, the behavior that he indicated, he's a type, and you should have walked away sooner than you did because this guy was playing you the whole time. Al Qaeda, 2004, they're playing us. They're not negotiating. We called them out on it. Don't think you're negotiating. You wouldn't say it exactly like that, but that was absolutely the approach. Confront people on their behavior in a respectful way." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And signal that you're willing to walk away. And mean it, a thousand percent. And mean it. Isn't that terrifying? I mean, it's scary because you don't want to really" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "walk away. Or do you have to really want to walk away? Well, this gets core values, your view of reality. If it's an abundant world, it's not" }, { "from": "human", "value": "scary to walk away. If it's a finite world with limited opportunities, then it's horrible. But you have to use that worldview to be willing to actually walk away. It could be walking away from a lot of money. It could be walking away from something that's going to hurt people." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Because if you lose a hostage. Yeah, well, but if they're not going to let the hostage" }, { "from": "human", "value": "out, suicide by cop, they ain't letting them go." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "To seven percent, how do most negotiations fail? The bad guys were never there to make a deal in the first place. If it was suicide by cop, if they were there to, if they're on a killing journey, it's an Israeli phrase. If they're on a killing journey and the actions" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that they're currently engaged in are part of that killing journey. Killing journey. Is there advice you can give about, you mentioned Israel, Palestine, the Middle East, taking on a few conversations on that topic. Is there hope for that part of the world? And from that hope, is there some advice you could lend?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, I think there's hope. Then I got friends on both sides. And also, after I left the FBI, most people listened to this, probably not going to remember who Rodney Dangerfield was. Oh, come on. But he's a comedian. Still doesn't get it in your respect." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, yeah. New Yorker. But he's a comedian. Still doesn't get it in your respect, yeah. Is he a New Yorker?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think he was a New Yorker. Or like Jersey or something, yeah. Yeah, and he did a movie a long time ago called Back to School. He went back to school. He was an old guy back to school. So I went back to school after I left the FBI. I did get a master's at Harvard Kennedy. And that's where I'm running across people on both sides of that. And when they could talk, they said, let's start from the premise that both sides want a better life for our kids, which is this version that I was telling you earlier from Tom Girardi. Let's pick a point in the future that we're both happy with. And they found that they could talk. All right, so it might not be better for us. How do we make it better for our kids? And that's where the hope derives from. Because I think both sides ultimately want it to be better for their kids, which is why they still engage in interactions and which is why I think the leadership, regardless of how compromised they might be on either side, there are few straight players in the game, in the Middle East, or anywhere for that matter. But they want a better future for their kids. You get people to agree that you want a better future for your kids. Now you can start talking about, well, how do we work our way back from that? And then, all right, so we got a mutual point in the future. The Israeli-Palestinian negotiations are also, for me, interesting because you mentioned Clubhouse about almost two years ago now, when Israel was shelling Gaza. They hit the UPI office. They got fed up with the rocket attacks from Hamas. And of course Hamas is putting rockets in the UPI office or the AP office, whichever press office it was there. How's that office going to be there otherwise? Hamas is running a show. You're not going to run that office unless you let them store weapons there. That's just part of the game. And are they going to store them in specially designated ammunition dumps? No, they're going to put them in schools, they're going to put them in hospitals, they're going to put them in all places, that when Israel hits them they're going to look really bad. So after a while Israel gets fed up and they start shelling Gaza, and they're hitting these places. A friend of mine, Nicole Betam is hosting buddy. I said, all right, cool. We'll go on. We'll do it. And watch. We won't have a single argument. We'll invite people on from both sides. There was one rule. Before you started to describe what you thought of the other side, you had to say, before I disagree with you, here's what I think your position is. And you got to continue to state the other side's position until they agree that you've gotten. Now, what happened? No agreement and no arguments. That was what we were really going for. We wanted to show that people on both sides in one of their emotional timeframes, if your only requirement was you had to state the other side's position first, nobody got out of control. Did it work? That's exactly what happened. We wanted to show people that you can have conversations that do not devolve into screaming matches with vitriol, talking about how you're dedicated to the destruction of the other side. Just first," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "see if you can outline where they're coming from. That's really impressive because I've, just having seen on Clubhouse, people, which part of the reason I liked Clubhouse, you get to hear voices from all sides. They were emotionally intense. I'm sweating just in the buildup of your story here. I thought it's going to go to hell, but you're saying it kind of worked." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Not one person lost control. Now, of the two sides, the people that were speaking on behalf of the Israelis were a little better at articulating supportive positions for the Palestinians. Most of the people who want to speak up on behalf of the Palestinians, they'd want to start like, you're doing this. I'd say, no, no, no. You can go there. Just not yet. Before you go there, you can say that all you want. Before you go there, you've got to try to articulate to them where they're coming from, they got to tell you you got it right. What would consistently happen is there's a leveling out of a person to try to see the other side's perspective and articulate it. It's enormously beneficial to the person who's trying to do it, which was really the point that we were trying to make." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's a really interesting exercise by way of advice. If it works at Clubhouse, for people who don't know, that's a voice app where you can be anonymous. It's really regular people, but regular people who can also be anonymous. It can be chaos. If it works there, that's really interesting. When you sit down for a conversation across the table from somebody, don't have them even steal me on the other side. Have them just state the" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "other side. Explain your understanding of it. That's it. Every now and then I would jump in, and as somebody supporting Israel, whoever the heck they were, and they'd say a couple things. The Palestinian guy would be like, ah, or gal, or supportive of them, would say, you miss some stuff. I'd say, let me jump in. First of all, I know what the Nakba is. The Nakba is a catastrophe. That's the day Israel was born. For the rest of the world's birth of Israel, for you, it's the Nakba. I said, you've got members of your family that are still walking around carrying keys to the front door of the house. They abandoned it. I'd say, you feel bad that, in point of fact, that in World War II, the world stood back and watched while the Nazis threw the Jews off a" }, { "from": "human", "value": "building. The only problem was they landed on you, and they'd be like, yeah, and they'd be like," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "yeah, that's where they're coming from. Articulating deeply what the other side feels is transformative for both people involved in the process." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What's the toughest negotiation you've ever been a part of, or maybe observed or heard of? What's a difficult case that just stands out to you, or maybe just one of many?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, the stuff we went through with Al Qaeda in and around Iraq, Iraq and Saudi, first one was in Saudi in 2004 timeframe. The hardest part about that was working" }, { "from": "human", "value": "with family members and not deceiving them about the possibility of the outcome. How do you talk to family members? Is that part of the negotiation?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. Empathy, learning empathy the hard way, and then being able to take it up to higher levels, because at its base level, a guy that we're working with now that's coaching us in the U.S. and is a business partner, his name is Jonathan Smith, he pointed out to us that there's a Shu Hari concept. Are you familiar with Shu Hari? It's a martial arts concept. Shu is do it exactly as the master is telling you to do it. Wax on, wax off, credit kid stuff. Ha is when you've done the repetitions enough times, you're getting a feel for it, and you begin to see the same lessons coming from other masters. You're seeing the same things show up in other places. And at the re-level, you're still in the discipline, but you're making up your own rules. It's almost a flow state. And you don't realize that you're making up your own rules. And if somebody asks you where you learned that, you probably say, my sensei taught it to me, my master taught it to me. This will come back around the negotiating with families pretty quick. We did this once because there's a bunch of people that we coach, business people that are scared of the amount of money that they're losing if we're not coaching them regularly. One of these guys, Michael, we're interviewing him for a social media posting about two years ago. And Michael says, yeah, you got to gather data with your eyes. And I remember, and I went, whoo. I said, where did you hear that before? And he" }, { "from": "human", "value": "goes, I don't know, I heard it from you, I think. And I was like, no, no, no, no. From you, I think." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And I'm like, no, no, no. I didn't remember saying that. For that first time I've heard that he's in re. So what's this got to do with families? Empathy at its base level, in a shoe level, I learned it on the suicide hotline is saying, you sound dank. I'm just calling out the elephant in the room. Your emotions, what's driving you. I'm throwing a label on your affect and I'm saying you sound or it sounds like you are because that's the basic karate kid wax on, wax off approach. Now there are a lot of hostage negotiators that'll tell you empathy doesn't work at home, not true. They've never gotten out of shoe. You're getting ready to talk to your significant other and you want to go someplace that you know is going to make her angry. You want to go do something. Now that's real negotiation right there. You could say to her, you sound angry, in which case she's going to blow up because her reaction is, you made me angry, bozo. Can you act like you're an innocent third party or that you were independent of how I feel bad? And you learn a little bit more and you say the high level is probably going to make you angry. And then what I did with families, I knew how they felt before I walked in the door. I knew that they were scared to death. You find out that your husband, your father, your brother has been grabbed by Al-Qaeda who are in the business of chopping people's heads off. You're going to be horrified. I can't walk into them and go like, you sound angry. Of course I'm angry, you idiot. But knowing what they are, I used to walk into families houses and I'd say, I know you're angry. Now what do the circumstances dictate that they should also feel? They're going to feel abandoned by their government. They're going to feel totally alone. They're going to be scared and they're going to be angry because they feel the government abandoned them. Point of fact, is this an accurate statement? That their loved one voluntarily went into a war zone and voluntarily went someplace the government told them not to go. Are the facts that the government abandoned them? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, the government wanted, tried to get them to not go! And they went anyway. But that doesn't change how they felt in a moment. And I walk into a house and I go, I know you're it. I know you feel abandoned and alone. And I know you're horrified. And I know you feel the United States government has abandoned it. And they would look at me and go like, What do we do now? Now we're ready to rock." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Is there with Al Qaeda or in general is there a language barrier too? It It could be just barriers of different communication styles. I mean, you got like a New Yorker way about it. That might make somebody from like, I don't know, Laguna Beach, I'm confident. Do you feel that language barrier in communication? Is that language and communication style" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in itself creating a barrier? You got a barrier when you think that your way is the way. Sure, that's the biggest barrier. Yeah, and that happens all the time. When people talk about, what about cross-cultural negotiations? What hand do I gotta shake hands with? So that I can get my way barrier. Well, if you strip it all down, we're all basically the same blank slate when we were born. Everybody's got a limbic system. Everybody's limbic system works pretty much the same way. People are driven by the same sorts of decisions. How does this affect my future? What am I at risk of losing? How does this affect my identity? I caught a kidnapper, you're a New York City businessman, you're a tobacco farmer in the South. All making those same decisions based on those same things. So as soon as I start to navigate that, and I tailor my approach, which is what empathy is, to what you think, how you see things. So I can be the biggest goofball ever from, if you live in the South, yeah, maybe I'm a New Yorker, or I'm somebody from LA, or somebody from Chicago. But my geography is foreign to you, but as soon as I start dialing in on how you see things," }, { "from": "human", "value": "suddenly you're listening. What about the three voices you talk about? The different voices you can use in that communication." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Right. Talk about the different voice. Right. The assertive's voice, direct and honest. I'm a natural born assertive." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Natural born? I thought we're all blank slate. Is you're born?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, that's it. Yeah, stop catching me on what I said. How dare you accuse me of what I've said, to quote Bono, I stand accused of what I've said," }, { "from": "human", "value": "the things I've said. That's a good line. He's got a few good lines. Yeah. So assertive voice, you're born that way." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Which one, what are the other ones?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Analyst, you're an analyst. I can tell you're assertive. Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's an analyst voice? Well, an analyst is close to the- Smarter, more thoughtful. No, as a matter of fact. Look, you ever do a decision tree? Yeah. See, you like it too, don't you?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "So decision trees, you know, I'm a computer scientist, so the way I've," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I like mathematical, systematic ways of seeing the world. It's an analyst. You think Donald Trump would ever say that? Unlikely. Wait, is he more the assertive kind of guy? He's a natural born assertive, yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, are all New Yorkers like this?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is this something in the water? No, that's a crazy thing. I mean, there's an affect that a city can have. And you know, New York's Northeast, not just New York, but the Northeast is a little more the affect of the area, of the culture of the area. The individuals, individuals still boil down into the three types, cross or board. What's the third one? Accommodator, smiling, optimistic, hopeful. Yeah. I'm a thousand percent convinced that the phrase hope is not a strategy is designed at people's frustration over a third of the population being accommodators that are hope-driven. I hope this works out. And they're very relationship, on the surface they're very relationship oriented. They tend to appear to be very positive, and then they are. But it's really built around hope." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And the idea is you can adopt these three voices." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You can, yeah, you can learn them. They're all learnable. The analysts are often mistaken for accommodators, because as you said before, you know, analysts are more introspective, more analytical. They're looking at the systems at work. And if they like to learn, they notice that accommodators make more deals than they make. They also notice that there's a higher failure rate of the deals. But since they notice stuff and they think about it, they catch on faster than assertives do, that the pleasant nature of an accommodator contributes strongly to them making deals. Like my daughter-in-law is an analyst. You know, another descriptor we have in that, an analyst are assassins. You know, an analyst will snipe you from a thousand yards out in the middle of the night, and you never know what hit you. And they're really happy with that." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But how is assertiveness, the assertive voice served you in negotiation?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Poorly. In negotiation. Poorly. This sort of voice is almost always counterproductive. It feels like getting hit in the face with a brick, getting hit in the face. And that's almost always counterproductive. So for me to be more effective, especially in a negotiation," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'll need to slow down and smile. You know, I heard that Teddy Roosevelt as a good negotiator and that he was extremely stubborn. And perhaps the right term for that will be assertive, but he picked his battles. Is there some value to holding strong to principle? So I don't even know if that's probably the opposite of empathy. Are there times when you can just stick, be extremely stubborn to your principles" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to win your negotiation? Oh, we do it all the time." }, { "from": "human", "value": "We're just nice about it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Okay, it helps to be nice, you're saying. Well, yes, because I need you to hear me. And the assertive's tone of voice, so when we do our training, typically we do an exercise called 60 seconds or she dies. And I play the bad guy bank robber and I ask you to be the hostage negotiator. And your job is to give you the four real world constraints and then you're gonna try and negotiate me out of the bank. Now we're doing this, now the first voice that I always use in that exercise is the assertive's voice, which is the commanding voice. It's the voice that all police officers have taught to use in the street, issued loud and clear commands. You know, it doesn't, to me, I don't feel like I'm attacking you. I just feel like I'm being direct and honest and clear. You on the other hand feel attacked. Now we're doing this exercise in Austin a couple of years ago. The first participant has an Apple watch on. He tells us afterwards that sitting still, not even answering, when he first gets hit in the face with the assertive's voice, his heart rate jumped to 170, which is a typical fight or flight reaction. I come at you like I'm fighting you. Your fight flight mechanisms all kick into gear, which clouds your thinking. You're automatically dumber in the moment. So if I wanna make a great long-term deal with you, highly profitable, I'm agnostic to you being profitable. You'd be profitable, well, that's fine. I'm here to make money for me. Me making you dumber will always hurt me." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Me making you feel attacked will always hurt me. So there's never a value in being," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in you making me afraid. There's never a long-term value in it. That's, it's another thing that tall Roz, when we were writing a book, braced me on. Because he said, there's scientific data out there it's called strategic umbrage. Well, there's data. Well, whether or not it's scientific, I would call that into question. But he said, there's studies out there that show that strategic umbrage works. And another thing that I also enjoy, you probably get tired of me saying" }, { "from": "human", "value": "wonderful things about Andrew. He talked- There's never, there's never enough wonderful things to say about the great Andrew Huberman, the host of the Huberman Lab Podcast. Everybody should subscribe too. You should talk to Andrew- You're funnier than he is though, I'll give you that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Hear that, Andrew. You're funnier than he is though, I'll give you that. Hear that, Andrew. He's funny accidentally. He makes me laugh all the time." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Not when he's trying to be funny, He's one of the people in this world that's truly legit. He's a really strong scientist and a really strong communicator and a good human being. And those, those together don't come often." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And that is nice to see." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, Yeah, yeah, he's a treasure. National treasure." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You were saying well he sort of taught me how to think about data and studies and science and Also from different books that he's turned me on to it's really helped me think about this stuff So the studies about strategic umbrage were done the ones that I've seen that show It's effective there were simulated negotiations with college students Now here's the problem with that a simulated negotiation with a college student college students. They're gonna sit down as part of their assignment They're gonna sit down one time They're going to sit down for 45 minutes. And they're going to think that if they didn't come to a deal at all that they failed. And there's no ongoing implementation. There's just the deal and then a walk away of a pretend situation. So they got no actual real skin in the game. There's no deal on Earth. Do you sit down and come to agreement 45 minutes and never see each other again? Because there's the implementation of the deal. Even if it's only payment. So the data is flawed. based on the way it was collected. It's a highly flawed study. And all data is flawed, as you know, as a scientist. You just gotta be aware what the flaws are and decide whether or not that destroys the study. Or what do you think? Take a look at the data. There's no such thing as perfect data. Look at the data, see what you think of it. The data that says that strategic umbrage works is based on flawed circumstances. Can you explain strategic umbrage? Getting mad, scaring the other side into a deal." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Getting mad at using anger strategically to bully the other side into an agreement. That's nice to hear in some sense. It's nice to hear that empathy is the right way" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in almost all situations, isn't it? Best chance of success. Not that it works every time, just it works more than anything else does." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What is the technique of mirroring? There's a lot of cool stuff in your book. There's just kind of jump around." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's mirroring? Mirroring is like, it's one of the most fun skills because it's the simplest to execute. You just repeat one to three-ish words of what somebody said, usually the last one to three words. What I found about it is people that really like mirroring love it because it's so simple and so effortless and invisible. They typically, for lack of a better term, tend to be both high IQ and high EQ. Like, I'm not a high IQ guy. I'm an average dude. I like to think that I can learn and EQ, emotional intelligence, is a skill you can build and I'm always working on building it. But a lot of really regular average people would be like, mirroring, that's stupid. I'm not doing that. And I don't know why they don't like it. But when I find somebody that loves to mirror, I'll always ask them, how'd you, how'd you score IQ? And typically, their IQ is pretty high. Now, I don't know why that combination attracts people to mirroring because there's nine skills, eight from hostage negotiation and the ninth really was tone of voice and we just define that as a skill. And each one is different and focuses on different components of the conversation. And a lot of people don't like to mirror. They found it so awkward. Like, I don't particularly, I'm not particularly strong in mirroring. I gotta do it intentionally. I'm good at labeling. But does it also always work?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, it feels maybe awkward, but it's true, there's gotta be ways to signal" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you're truly listening." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's important. I think you can do body language, you can, yeah, there's a lot of ways to signal that," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but mirroring is probably just this trivial little hack." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It kinda is. You know what, there's a situation, I had a conversation with Steven Codkin, he's this historian, and he would say my name a lot throughout the conversation. He would be like, well, you have to understand, Lex, is that, and for some reason, that was making me feel really good. I was like, he cares about me. And I wonder if that key, if everyone has that key, that could be the name, just using people's name," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "could be powerful. Using the name is really context-driven. It can be extremely powerful with someone who's genuine, and it comes across in their demeanor, and it's used in a way that you can tell is meant to encourage you. Yeah. As opposed to explore you. Sure. And the people that are really into exploiting" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "will also use it and do the same thing. So you have to be, you have to avoid using the things that people that are exploiters, manipulators use, because it might signal to others" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that this person is trying to trick me." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Gotta be very conscious of it, yeah. What's labeling that you mentioned? The thing you like." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, I said earlier that old progression from you sound angry to this is probably gonna make you angry, to I know you're angry. Labeling is hanging a label on an emotion or an affect," }, { "from": "human", "value": "and then just calling it up. Is that almost always good? Could it be a source of frustration when a person is being angry and you kind of put a label on it, call out the elephant? Is it possible that that will lead to escalation of that feeling versus a resolution?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, the con, what would make it bad? Like, if I'm pointing out like that blatantly obvious, like if I say, look, I need you to get up and go down to the bank and make the deposit. Let's say I'm talking to somebody who works at my company. I need you to get on the phone with this person and make the appointment. And they go, sounds like you want me to talk to this person. That would be annoying. If it's just so absurdly obvious that there's no insight in your label at all. And as soon as you're demonstrating an awareness or a subtlety or an insight, either to you or to them, now we're making progress. So the only time a label could ever potentially be counterproductive is like, if you weren't actually listening" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and the label indicates that you're not listening," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "indicates that you're, you know, I'm teaching USC and I'm teaching labels and one of the kids in a class, he just wants to take the skills and make his deals and just hustle them. And he's just looking for a hustle. So he writes up a paper about, you know, he goes, there's some malls by Palm Springs or someplace, some platform malls. A lot of people go to buy suits. So he goes in there and he immediately starts the bargaining that my book teaches with no empathy. And he's like, throws a price at a guy and a guy's like, no. And he throws another price at a guy, guy's like, no. And then he says to the guy behind the counter, sounds like we can make a deal. Like, no, it doesn't. I just shot down everything you just said. If anything, it sounds like we're never going to make a deal. But he tried to use this label for manipulation. Now the guy didn't" }, { "from": "human", "value": "get mad on the other side, but it's like clearly this dude is not listening. And at the core of everything, you have a bunch of like, you know, almost like hacks, like techniques you can use, but at the core of it is empathy. At the core of it is empathy. Yeah. That's the main thing," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "you can be able to just sit there and listen. Yeah, and perceive. Yeah, and look for insights." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You know what? I like silence. Or like you're both sitting there, chilling with a drink, looking up at the stars. There's a moment, the silence makes you kind of zoom out, realize you're in this together, as opposed to playing a game or some kind of like chess game of negotiation you're in it together. I don't know. There's some intimacy to the silence. And like, if I ask a question and just let the other person sit there in silence before they answer or vice versa. They ask me a question, I sit there in silence. That's a big, it feels like" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "a big intimate thing. Yes. And the other two types until they've experienced that are afraid of it. And what I'm actually going to do is for whatever reason, I'm really comfortable with silence. I think because I've experienced its effectiveness and also my son Brandon, like he's a king of dynamic silence. Like he coaches people, he says, go silent, count thousands to yourself. Don't stop till you run out of numbers. That's a good line. He's also good, full of good lines. He is. That is. And so there's so much to it. But the other two types are natural wiring against it until they've experienced it. And you've got instinct, intuition has given you data once you've experienced it. But your amygdala is kicking into gear. Again, sorry, I realize it's more complicated than that until you've experienced it. So accommodators, hope-based, how do they signal fury? The silent treatment. So when you go silent, they're scared to death, you're furious because that's how they indicate it. The assertive thinks that you as the analyst went silent because you want them to talk some more. When a point of fact, you're thinking or, and I love your description, the feeling of intimacy and silence and experiencing the moment, because I'm actually going to factor that into trying to get the accommodators to love shared intimacy. They would love to experience a moment. And I can see that being very compelling than be willing to cross that chasm and experience silence and see how it works for them." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, it's nerve wracking, which is why it's intimate. Because you start thinking, what's the other person thinking? Are we actually going to do this? Are we going to sit here for 10 seconds and count? I mean, there's tricks to it, I guess, like Brennan says is to just count it out and realize through data that there's intimacy to it. A friend of mine, he lost his voice because he's singing. So the doctor says he can't talk for a week, just to heal the voice, the vocal cords. But he hung out with other people, with friends, and didn't talk to them. He just hung out. And he said it was really intimate. They both didn't talk to each other. They just sat there and enjoyed time together. I don't know. It's a wake up call. It's a thing to try maybe with people in your life. Just hang out and don't say anything. As an experiment, don't say anything the entire day. We're trying. Yeah, definitely. It's interesting. I haven't tried it myself. It's kind of like a silent retreat, but more active as part of regular everyday life. Anyway, is there other interesting techniques we" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "can talk about here? For example, creating the illusion of control. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's principally by asking what and how questions, because people love to tell others what to do or how to do it. It does a lot. That was really the way when the book was first written, that we really thought about what and how questions. It's given the other side, the illusion of control. And there's a lot more to it than that that we've discovered. I mean, it triggers deep thinking. It wears people down. Deep thinking could be exhausting." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And you want... So what's the role of exhaustion in negotiation? Is that ultimately what..." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You got to be careful with that. You got to be careful with that. Some people exhaust intentionally. One of my negotiation heroes, a guy now who's unfortunately suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's, John Domenico Pico is the UN hostage negotiators that got all the Western hostages out of Beirut in the 80s. And he wrote a book called Man Without a Gun. And according to Johnny, at this point in time, I don't think he has any memory of who I am at all. But he writes in his book, one of the great secrets of negotiation is exhausting the other side. Political negotiations that could be Johnny was very deferential. He was in the middle of, in the 80s, leading up to about 1986-ish. Every negotiation involved in warring parties in the Middle East that you can imagine. He was in Cyprus. He was in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran. The Iranian government had tremendous trust in him as a Westerner, a representative of the UN. Got all the Westerners out of Beirut. And he was just ridiculously patient in which the other side found exhaust, would often find exhaustion." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So exhaustion can't be a component of finding resolution in a negotiation." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "If it tamps down the negative emotions, often exhaustion will tamp down negative emotions. The real trick is really getting negative emotions out out of the way, because you're dumber in a negative frame of mind." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So the goal is always positive emotion as you talk about? Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's why you're always chasing together. I think so, yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And that's what that's right. It's about yes, like whatever you're triggering the whatever the chemistry you're triggering your brain Yeah, yeah, we're doing good here And you know long term for long term success. Absolutely. Yeah, how's the word fair used and abuse bomb the f-bomb as you call it" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How's it used and abused in negotiation? It's usually Used it's most frequently uses a weapon It's abused as a point of manipulation. It's what people say when they feel backed into a corner and they can't Come up with any legitimate reason as to why they're being backed into a corner Like nobody uses word f the f-bomb nobody uses the word fair when they've got criteria to back them up So consequently when somebody start starts dropping out, you got to realize the other side's got no legitimate outside criteria They're they're feeling very vulnerable. They can't explain it, but they feel defensive and It saying hey look I've just I've given you a fair offer is a way for me to knock you off your game if you're if you're not You're not aware of it so a lot of cutthroat negotiations negotiators are gonna use it on you to knock you off your game the The NFL strike Probably now it's been a good 10 years ago. Um, and maybe even longer than that one of this Sticking points was the owners were not opening their books to the players players want to see the numbers and in order to not open their books They just sent a rep tell the press conference saying we've given them players a fair off Well, if it was fair you to open your books Yeah, if if you gave them a fair offer and it was justified by what was in your books You'd open them to prove your point. So what ends up happening though that well The owners gave the players a fair offer starts to get picked up in the media Mm-hmm, and then it starts getting repeated and now now that different people on a player's side are going like em Maybe maybe they have given us a fair offer. It caused People to be insecure about their own position It's an enormously powerful word that can be used and abused and it almost always comes up in every negotiation It's shocking the number of times it comes up and with people who don't really understand how or why it's coming up" }, { "from": "human", "value": "so usually it's a signal of" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Of a not a good place in the negotiation without without question I'm completely convinced that if the person is using the word as a means of getting what they want then Either accidentally on purpose either in their gut or they know they got a bad position or their gut is afraid that they are Do I use the word? What I'll say is I want you to feel like I've treated you fairly and if even any given point in time" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "You think I'm not treating you fairly. I want you to stop me and we're gonna address big ridiculous question, but How do you? Close the deal. How do you? take the" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Negotiation to its end is the implementation ultimately you got a pivot You got a pivot to agreed upon implementation to really to really move out and out on the negotiation And I may say how do you how do you want to proceed? And if you don't know I might say no one to question Is it a ridiculous idea if I share with you some ideas of how to proceed?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "And then you agree on the actual steps and that's the implementation. It's not just the philosophical agreement It's actual steps. The big problem in all negotiations is a lack of discussion of next steps. That's deep" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Who is the best negotiator you've ever met? Yeah, actually probably my son Brandon. Yeah. Yeah, he's ridiculously talented I mean, he's ridiculously talented And yeah, he's you know, and what was it the coils book the culture the telecode says that you know People just noticed didn't started getting good at it. It's no such thing as a child prodigy. He's got interested when they were kid. I mean Brandon started learning how to negotiate when he was two years old and he's been in it and immersed in it You know since he can make complete sentences even before he can make complete sentences He's ridiculously talented. What's what's his future? What's he want to do? He's Gun he has been involved. He's he run and built my company and now he's gonna" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Be an affiliated licensee run his own operation. He's pretty he's pretty much gonna end up doing very much and he has It's gonna open his entrepreneurial opportunities to do whatever he wants and not have his dad say no and do a better job than his dad More most likely. Yeah Okay, do you see some of the techniques that you talk about as manipulative" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Manipulation is whether or not I'm trying to exploit you hurt you Um Am I trying to manipulate a bank robber and to let me save his life? Yeah, so manipulation is like what am I what am I trying?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to do to you? Yeah, so but you don't see the negative connotation if you're trying to Bring a better future. It's not manipulation" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Stop me if I'm trying to bring a better future from being genuine and honest like I Compliment you. Yeah, if my compliment is genuine, that's not manipulation like it better. But you know if I think you know You're you got a pair of shoes that that are the dumbest looking things I've ever seen And I go wow, those are great shoes now. That's manipulation" }, { "from": "human", "value": "So there's there's guys like Warren Buffett who are big on integrity and honesty What's the role of?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Lying in effective language a bad idea line is just a bad idea for a variety of reasons first of all There's really a chance the other side. It's a better lie than you are. They're gonna spot it right off the bat. Secondly They could be luring you into a trap to see if you will lie thirdly the chances are they're gonna find out that you lied to him eventually is really high and then the penalties and the taxes Are gonna be way higher than what you had in the first place" }, { "from": "human", "value": "So long term you want to have a reputation of somebody with integrity and the more you lie the harder it is to maintain that reputation Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And we're just gonna get out. Yeah, so what's the We can just return to that question. What's the difference between a good conversation and a good negotiation? Can we because I think just reading your work listening to you there's a sense I have that the thing we're doing now and just conversation on podcasts and so on is different than negotiation it feels like the purpose is different and yet having some of the same awareness of The value of empathy is extremely important, but it feels like the goals are different or no" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Really close fine line. I mean I you know, I I ruled in here not having any expectations not looking for anything other than to have an interesting conversation and To Hear what was behind the questions that you're asking me and what interests you and then also Your description of silence and a power of silence some I'm going to take away as a learning point and help learn to teach others But I didn't come in here. I suppose the negotiation is when we're both aware of a problem. We're trying to solve" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Right. There's no problem in the room. Right just to solve except maybe like the human condition and Inside, you know wisdom insight learn inside. How do you train to become better in negotiating?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Um in business and in life. Yeah. Yeah, just small stakes practice for high stakes results I mean decide what what kind of negotiating resonates with you" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean what's that mean small stakes practice for high stakes or small stay so small little" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Incremental picking up girls at a bar. What are we talking about? Well, it can't be for some people. It's that's high stakes practice Well, you know label labeling mirrors. What are the basic tools of great negotiation labeling Miriam paraphrasing summarizing? So you start you start labeling a mirror people that you just have a regular interactions with Just to gain a feel for whether or not you can read somebody's affect or how accurate your read is to get better at it and so, you know label the the Lyft driver or grocery store clerk or Person behind the airline counter at at the airport. So putting a label on their affect or throwing something at them That because negotiation is a parables perishable skill emotional intelligence is perishable so seeing if you can indicate that you understand their label, um One of my favorite labels to throw out on somebody which you know, maybe re-level I might look at somebody who looks distressed and I'll go tough day. So several years ago. I'm at the counter at LAX Well, I'm waiting the line to get to the counter And a lady behind the counter is clearly making a point to not meet my eyes So that I don't approach and she looks and so like, you know You know when you're next in line and they're making sure that you don't meet eyes Well, I'm waiting the line and I'm thinking to myself. Alright, so they're having a bad day So I walk up and as soon as I approach the counter I go tough day and she kind of Snaps around and she goes no, no, no, how can I help you? Mm-hmm It goes out of her way to help me now. I'm practicing but I also know it made her feel better It relieves some of the stress. So now I'm going through TSA. I want to look for people who are having a tough day It's a good place to find a good place to find in practice And I'm rolling through the line and I realized I haven't tossed a label out on any one of these guys and and there's this guy Watching the bags come out of the x-ray machine. He's just kind of got an indifferent look on his face and I go tough day And he kind of goes I could see from his body language like no good place and I go just another day, huh? And he goes yeah, just another day, you know, he felt seen but I missed and I'm practicing and I'm trying to stay sharp" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "So these are the few words were just a few words. You're trying to like quickly localize the effect" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And I live on it very very very analytically said and I live on it very very very analytically said" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Thank you. I'm not letting it go. I love it It does the same apply to just conversation in general just how to get better conversation I think a lot of people struggle they haven't securities They have anxiety about conversation I as funny as it's to say I have a lot of anxiety about conversation" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is that is basically to do the same kind of practice? Yeah some of the techniques you get genuinely just trying to make sure you heard somebody" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Oh, yeah, what's the best conversation you ever been in except this one, of course I mean, not the best conversation, but what stands out to you as a conversation that changed you as a person, maybe." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, there's probably been a lot of them along the way, I mean, but one that I remember on a regular basis, actually there's two, but when I was in the bureau, I'm at Quantico, I'm there for an in-service, there's another guy from New York, a buddy of mine named Lionel, and we're both trying to decide whether or not we want to try to get into profiling or negotiation because they're both about human dynamics and both of us really like human dynamics. And we're sitting around talking about it and we're talking about several things and he labels me, and I knew he didn't know what he was doing, I think he had picked it up and I had been talking about my family, quite a few things, and he said to me, and I never said this directly, that we were close. But he said to me, sound like your family's really close. And I can remember in a moment like this feeling, just like I felt great in the moment. I mean, what he said just drew together everything that I'd been saying and nailed the essence of it. And I have a very clear recollection of how good that felt in a moment. So a couple of years later, I'm on a suicide hotline. Now I got this line at the back of my head, you know, line technique, reaction, read, whatever you want to call it. Guy calls in on a hotline, and I could tell the dude is rattled by his tone of voice. I mean, just amped up. And he goes, you know, just trying to put a little on the day. I need to help put a little on the day. I gotta put a little on the day. And I said, Oh, you sound anxious. And he goes, he goes, Yeah. Yeah. And he And he came down a little bit and he was a guy that was telling me about, he was battling a disease of paranoia and he's going to go on a car trip with his family the next day. And he knew that on the car trip, he was going to, you know twist himself in the knots. And so the night before he was twisting himself in the knots, and he's laying out everything that he's done to try to beat paranoia and how much his family's helping. going on a car trip with a family because they're going to take them to see a doctor. And so I hit him with the same thing that my buddy Lionel said. I said, sounds like your family's close. He goes, yeah, we are close. And he leveled out a little bit more. And then he started ticking off all the things that he was doing to try to be paranoid. And he sounded determined. And so I said, you sound determined. And he goes, yeah, I am determined. And I'll be fine. Thanks. And that was all I said. So those two conversations, which are overlapping" }, { "from": "human", "value": "conversations, those two things really stick out in my mind. Do those things like through all the different negotiations and conversations you've had, do they kind of echo throughout? Like you basically, because when you empathize with other human beings, you start to realize we're all the same. And so you can start to pick little phrases here and there that you've heard from other little experiences that we're all about. Like we all want to be to be close with other human beings. We all want love. I think we're all deeply lonely inside. I'm looking for connection. We're just if we're honest about it. And so all humans have that same, all the same different components of what makes them tick. So you kind of see yourself basically just saying the same" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "things to connect with another human being. Yeah, there aren't that many different things that we're looking for understanding on or connection on or satisfaction of. There just aren't that many of them regardless. And so yeah, you're looking for it to manifest itself in some form or another, and you're willing to take a guess on whether or not that's what you're seeing or" }, { "from": "human", "value": "hearing. What advice would you give to me to be better at these conversations? To me and to I tell other people that do kind of interviews" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and podcasts and so on, interviews." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I really care about empathy as well." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is there kind of as a life-long journey in this process. Well I think, I would advise you to take that approach which is the approach that you're taking. You care about it, you're very curious about it. You see it as a life-long journey. You're fascinated by it. You enjoy learning about it and you definitely do see it as a life-long journey as opposed to this is what I can, If I can acquire this, then I can manipulate people." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "No, I mean I fall in love with people I talk to. There's a kind of deep connection and it lingers with you. Especially when I'm preparing. The more material there is in a person, the more you get to fall in love with him ahead of time. That you get to really understand not understand but what I mean by falling in love Well, appreciate. Appreciate, but also become deeply curious. That's what I mean by falling in love. Yeah. You appreciate the things you know but you start to see like Alison Wonderland, you start to see that there's all this cool stuff you can learn if you keep interacting with them, and then when you show up and you actually meet, you realize it's like more and more and more and more, it's like in physics. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know, and it's like really exciting. Then, it could also be heartbreaking because you have to say goodbye. Goodbye, I hate goodbyes. I hate goodbyes. Seems terminal, right? Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It reminds me that I'm gonna die one day." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, it seems tough. Like things end, good things end, it sucks. But then it makes the moment more delicious, you know, that you do get to spend together. Yeah. Okay. I just wanna, I completely forgot, I wanted to ask you about this, the 7-38-55% rule. It's really interesting. Does this, is there an all truth to it? That 7% of messages conveyed from the words used," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "38% from the tone of voice and 55% from body language." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is that really true to that? All right, so Albert Morabian, I think is the name of the UCLA professor that originally proposed a 7-38-55 ratio and discussed it in terms of that it wasn't the message, but how much, he called it liking. Like are you, not that you're, the meaning is coming across, but you're liking of the message. And so it's been extrapolated heavily by people like me to this meaning of the meaning in 7-38-55 from liking to the meaning. What I've seen regularly is people that communicate verbally if their speakers, Tony Robbins, 7-38-55 guy, he throws the ratio out there, go, that's it exactly. That's exactly how the message comes across. This is how we gotta balance it. This is how we gotta do it. Those that communicate principally in writing, the meaning of the words are much more important than them. So they're deeply uncomfortable with 7 being the words because the content, the words, the meaning of the words, when you're writing, it's so important that you hate to poo-poo it that way. So I, first of all, I thousand percent believe it's an accurate ratio, but the real critical issue is not what the ratio of those three things are, it's what's the message when they're out of line. Like what's the message when the tone of voice is out of line with the words? Like it don't matter what your ratio is, you've got a problem if their tone" }, { "from": "human", "value": "does not match their words. And that's hard to really put a measure on, exactly. Even in writing, there's a tone, I mean, it's not just, even in writing, it's not just the words. There's the words, but there's like a style underneath the whole thing. Right. And there's something like body language, presentation of the whole thing. Yeah, I'm a big fan of constraint, mediums of communication, which writing is, or voice, like Clubhouse. There's a personality to a human being when you just hear their voice. Like there's, it's not just, you could say it's the tone of voice, but there's like, you can like, what is it? The imagination fills in the rest. Like when I'm listening to somebody, I'm like, I'm imagining some amorphous being, right, doing things, when they get angry, I'm imagining anger." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I don't know what exactly I'm visualizing. Listen to somebody. Well, and so you made me think of a funny story because we were talking about your buddy Elon before. And I told you, you know, about, you know, that I'd interacted with some of the senior executives. So I know that they love working with him and I think he's an interesting guy and they realized that he can be funny and he jokes around. So they're telling me, they're on this conference call, just words, and a guy on the other end of the line says something that was wrong, but wasn't bad. And so they said, they're on a phone and Elon goes, you're fired. And then everybody in the room with him can see that he's joking. But the person on the other side can't, and they all go to like, wait, wait, wait, wait, they can't see your look on your face right now. You got to stop, you got to stop. Because the guy on the other side is dying right now. He doesn't realize you're joking. So there were the words and the tone of voice," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but it lacked the visual to go with it. Nevertheless, it was probably funny. I'm sure it was very funny at the time. Maybe not to him. Just as interesting to ask, I don't know if you're following along the developments of large language models. There's been something called Chad GPT. There's just more, more and more sophisticated and effective and impressive Chad bots essentially. They can talk. And they are becoming more and more human-like. Right. Do you think it's possible in the future that AI will be able to be better in negotiators than humans?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you think about that kind of stuff? I'm sure. Well, so definition of better versus less flawed. Chad bots have been out there for a long time. And probably about five years ago now, a company approached us because they were doing a negotiation Chad bot. And they said two things. First of all, I said, you know, why are you talking to us? So well, in point of fact, we already spoke to the people that are teaching, quote, the Harvard methodology. And, you know, the rational approach to negotiation just doesn't work. Rational approach just does not work. Our Chad bots are not getting anywhere. But we're showing in around about 80% of the interactions, a higher success outcome with these Chad bots. And they showed me what they were doing. And it was still a lot deeply flawed emotional intelligence wise. But the reason why that they were having higher success rates is the Chad bots were never in a bad mood. And you could reach out for Chad bot in the middle of the night. So if you were talking to somebody that was never upset and was always available, then you're gonna have a higher success rate. Negotiations go bad when people" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "are in a negative frame of mind. So the natural ability of a Chad bot to be positive is just going to give you a higher success rate." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, yeah. And they're not gonna get mad and argue with you. You know, you say to a Chad bot, you know, your price is too high. Chad bot is designed to come back with a smiley face. Yeah. You say to a person, your price is too high. They go, how dare you? I'm trying to make a living." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You know, they gotta go off the deepest. Unfortunately or fortunately, I think the way Chad bots are going now, they will come back negative because they're becoming more and more humanlike. That's the whole point. To be able to pass the touring tests, you have to be negative, you have to be an asshole, you have to have boundaries, you have to be insecure," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "you have to have some uncertainty. Well, as them pursuing being having boundaries and being negative. Like I can, again, you throw a proposal to me, Before I say no, I'm going to say, look, I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me. I'm going to set up a real clear boundary without being negative. A lot of people really struggle with setting boundaries without being negative, without name calling, without indignation," }, { "from": "human", "value": "without getting upset. When you show that you're not getting upset, I'm not just seeing that. I'm seeing a flawed human that has underneath it a temper, underneath it the ability to get upset, but chooses not to get upset. And the chatbot has to demonstrate that. So it's not just going to be cold and be this corporate, blank, empty, vapid creature that just says, oh, thank you. Thank you for saying that. No. The chatbot has to be able to be mean" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and choose not to be. Interesting. I don't know. I'd be willing to see that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "play out and see how it plays out. Maybe not, but I guess what I'm saying is to be a good negotiator, you have to have the capacity to be a bad person and choose not to. Really? I think so. Really? See, I think you're just going to have the capacity to set a boundary and stick to it. Interesting. Because I think it's hard for me to trust a person who's not aware of their own demons, because if you say you don't have any demons, if you don't have any flaws, I can't trust you. Yeah. Well, it's first of all, it's a lie, right? So somebody's life, right? This is gives back to life Yes, so you have to have a self-awareness about that But he'd be able to control and demonstrate the able to control it. I mean this is humans. I just think humans Intelligent effective humans are able to do this. Well and chat bots are not Yet and they're moving that direction. So it makes me think about what is actually required for effective negotiation That's what AI systems do is they make you ask yourself What is it that makes humans special any discipline? What is it that makes humans special chess and go games? Which AI systems are able to beat humans at now. What is it that makes them effective at? Negotiation, what does it make them effective at? something that's extremely difficult which is Navigating physical spaces. So doing things that we take for granted like making yourself a cup of coffee is exceptionally difficult problem For robots. Yeah, because of all the complexities involved in navigating physical reality We we have so much common sense reasoning built in just about how gravity works about how Objects move the What kind of objects there are in the world It's like it's it's really difficult to describe because it all seems so damn trivial But it's not trivial right because a lot of that we just learn as babies We keep running into things and we'll learn about that So AI systems help us understand. What is it that makes humans release? What is the wisdom we have in our heads and And negotiation to me is super interesting because negotiation is not it's about business. It's about Geopolitics it's about running government Is basically negotiating? How do we have the different policies different? Bills and programs and so on how do we allocate money? How do we reallocate resources all that kind of stuff that seems like AI in the future could be better at that right, but maybe not maybe you have to be a messy weird insecure Uncertain human and debate each other and yell at each other on Twitter Maybe you have to have the red and the blue teams that yell at each other In in the process of figuring out what is true. Maybe AI systems will not be able to do that" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I figure out the full mess of human of human civilization. Yeah, interesting Well, I mean the two thoughts that I had along the way was I mean is anytime you're talking about systems or scaling You know, yeah, you're talking my belief is chatbot systems things that don't require Decision-making just following the instructions at least 80% of what's going on now The remaining percentage whatever it is. Does it does it require the human interaction and what's required? Like I'm not I'm not I'm not like I am NOT pro conflict And I also know that there's a case to be made in the creative world. It's some of the best thinking came out of conflict I'm reading interviews of Bono you too you know their admiration for some of the Beatles best music came when they were fighting with each other and The song one octune bay, which is I believe from the album octune baby Those guys were fighting. I mean they were on a verge of breaking up and their appreciation that conflict could create something beautiful And then when I was in a crisis negotiation unit, you know my last seven years in the FBI There was a guy that um named Vince brain dude brain brain negotiator And he and I used to argue all the time And then when we had a change in the guy who was in charge the guy was in charge took me off to the side He's like, you know, I can't take you and Vince fight not and I said, well, I got news for you I think we come up with much better stuff as a result of our battles And he said, you know Vince said the same thing to me and I like so if we don't have a problem fighting Why do you have a problem, but you know some there's there is something there that sometimes the most difficult? insights You rack your brains as to why someone is so Dug in on something that so you thinks is so wrong. Yeah, maybe there's something to it" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I think there's something to it. There's something about conflict" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Even drama that might be a feature not a bug of our society. I'd say it's" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Do you think there will always be war in the world? Yeah So there will always be a need for negotiators and negotiating. Well, as it turns, it turns out. Why do you think there will always be war? What's your intuition about human nature there?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, just because we're basically 75% negative. And then for lack of a better term, I call it two lines of code. Everybody, when we were little, somebody planted in two lines into our head. We don't know when it got in there, but somebody said something to us, it's stuck. And there are a lot of people that had some really negative garbage dumped in their brain when they were little. And just based on the numbers, what kind of opportunity they were given afterwards, did they ever have an epiphany moment when they genuinely believe they can get themselves out of it? Like, what is it? One of Joe Dispenza's book is Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. Like how do you get at that two lines of code that either mean or well intentioned but stupid ly speaking adults said to you at the wrong moment and planted in your brain? Like how the chances of everybody on earth getting that out, even a majority of people" }, { "from": "human", "value": "on earth getting that out of their heads is really small. What advice would you give to a young person today about how to have a career they could be proud of or a life, maybe somebody in high school, college, trying to figure out their" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "way in this world? It's probably a take on a cliche of do what you love, but if you figure out your ideals and pursue your ideals and stick to them when it costs you. Like a guy I admire very much, Michael Mulgill, runs this Operation Chris video at Atlanta. And one of his talks, he would say core values are what you stick to that cost you money. It's not a value that really matters to you unless it's costing you and stick to your values. Now, when I was in the FBI, I worked really hard at the number one core mission of the FBI is protect and defend the American people. So I could pursue that value at all times, which I did, or I could follow the rules." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You don't have time to do both. When did you know you found what you love?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "When did you fall in love with whatever this process is that is negotiating? I think it was in a conversation on the suicide hotline that I was telling you about earlier with the guy who was paranoid when I thought I can have that significant of an impact on another human being in this short of a period of time." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's really cool. How hard is it to talk somebody off the ledge? So this question is a big question. Why the hell live at all? How do you have that kind of deeply philosophical, deeply psychological, and also practical conversation" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with somebody and convince them they should stick around? Well, it's more clearing the clutter in their head and let them make up their own mind. That was what volunteering on Suicide Island was really about. Just let me see how quickly I can clear out the clutter in your head if you're willing to have it cleared out. Did you call here because you're actually looking for help or did you call here to fulfill some other agenda? Are you willing to clear the clutter in your head?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Not everybody is. So once you clear out the clutter, there's at least a somewhat hopeful chance that you'll" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "continue for another day. And if you step back, very few people that commit suicide physically are up against it that hard. Most of them by and large are pretty intact physically human beings. They're struggling with emotional stuff, but it's an emotional issue. It's not a physical issue. So if you were to be a complete mercenary, a guy I'm a very big fan of, a guy named Mark Pollock, a born great athlete, lost his eyesight, and then became paralyzed. He's an emotional leader. He's about helping people thrive and live great lives. Mark was born, he was a spectacular athlete, and first he lost his sight in one eye, then he lost his sight in the other eye, and then he fell out a window in a tragic experience. If there was ever a dude that was saying, like, living sucks, and if there's any doubt in my mind, something worse happens to me every few years. But Mark's about being alive and inspiring other people. So the hard part with navigating with somebody who's tossing it in because there's a chemical imbalance or it's the way they're interpreting the world. There's clutter in their head." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Can you help clear that clutter in their head? And help them by themselves, inspire them to reinterpret that world as one worth living in? What do you think is the meaning of life? Why live?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's the good reason? Well, I have very strong religious beliefs. Spiritual. I don't, 1,000%, if you were to try to confine me in a box, I'd be a Christian. I have tremendous respect for the Jewish. I don't think any religion's got it nailed, exactly. Again, I keep mentioning, I'm kind of a Bono Christian. I think Bono is like what... And I'm going to butcher it, but my belief in Jesus is what I've got after Christianity leaves the room. The dogma of man's application of spiritual beliefs. That being said, I truly believe that my life was a gift and there's a purpose here for my creator decided that I woke up in the morning because he still had some cool, interesting" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "things for me to do." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And you have gratitude for having the opportunity to live that day." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And you have... Yeah. Well, you do one heck of a good job at living those days. I really appreciate your work. I appreciate the person you are. Thank you for just everything you've done today, for just being empathic, honestly. You're a great listener, you're a great conversationalist, just an honor to meet you and to talk to you. This was really awesome, Chris." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "My pleasure." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Awesome, Chris. My pleasure. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Chris Voss. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from John F. Kennedy. Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "A lot of things of my life making you happy. This is one of the consistent ones. They'll give you one month's supply of fish oil, one of the only supplements I take, when you sign up at athleticgreens.com slash Lex. This is the Lex Freedom Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Craig, can you introduce everyone? Yep, so we got Nicky Rod here, Brown Bell, two-time ADCC silver medalist, Nicky Ryan here, that's it. Okay, who are you?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "And I'm Craig Jones, also two-time ADCC silver medalist. Silver medalist, so the number one loser. Number one loser. And maybe a little bit more, your bio says, widely known as the Black Belt Slayer," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Hail's from New Jersey, the land of pizza and biceps. Number one loser." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yes, that's pretty accurate. Okay." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You also do carry a gun on you a lot? Yeah, I keep it loaded, you know, keep it on me," }, { "from": "human", "value": "keep it on me." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Uh huh, you got one today?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "In the car." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That was a mistake, it was your first mistake. I think you're too close." }, { "from": "human", "value": "They're a cover, they're a cover. And you are, Nicky Ryan, what else is there? What else do we know? Gordon Ryan's brother. Gordon Ryan's brother is waiting for that one." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They're a cover. Gordon Ryan's brother." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Gordon Ryan's brother waiting for that one. All right, so and you're all together part of the leadership of the B team here in Austin. Let's just get out some introductory questions. What in general accomplishment" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "are the things you mentioned you're most proud of? I mean, I'm proud just to not have to work a full-time job just to get by on the bullshit I've done so far. Yeah. Honestly. Just making money of a thing you love." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Exactly, yeah. When was the first time you made money" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "on a thing you love? Probably a jujitsu tournament. I think maybe in Abu Dhabi where I won $1,000, I just thought I was rich." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What'd you spend that $1,000 on? Probably something bad. Probably drugs or something at the time. I blew it at the after party." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's a good introduction to Craig. So what about you? When's the first time you made money on jujitsu? Or what's actually stepping back? Like, what's the thing you're most proud of?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is it a similar kind of thing, jujitsu? I think I'm most proud of is, I mean, for sure two 80cc silver medals, which hurts because you're so close to getting that gold, but you know, it takes time. I'm understanding that a sport of jujitsu takes quite a while to be at the tip top to be the absolute best. So I'm just being consistent in my training and my craft and I'll get that one spot one day. What failure or loss is the most painful to you? I don't know. I probably have a pretty short term memory. So my loss is I just like, I'll just forget about it. Yeah, I mean, for sure, my loss at this past 80cc in the finals, you know, that one's so good because I definitely thought I was going to win. I mean, like it takes a while to produce the skills or the reactions more so that you need to have to be, you know, to be that number one pound for pound guy. And, you know, pre-80cc, I was coming off an injury. So it took me a little bit to find the right mentality and physicality that I needed in order to, you know, get the wins that required gold." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So yeah, it's just process. Interesting. You keep saying process like it takes a while to build up. So you're not like thinking of a loss, like ADCC as like a specific failures. You're not, you haven't gone long enough" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in a particular process to being a champ. Well, I mean, for me, I'm coming, I'm closing in on five years of specifically jujitsu training. I'm about four and a half right now. And yeah, it's just the, you kind of, you constantly have these ups and downs in training where like, as long as you stay consistent, you'll have a gradual raise, but you know, it's still, you'll have these peaks and lows and, you know, just trying to get better every day. I'm definitely not where I will be in a few years, in a few years from now, but my strivings get there." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Are you actually a brown belt? Was that a joke? Brown belt, yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You're a brown belt. Brown belt, yeah. Like how many stripes? No stripes. No stripes. Stripless. Okay. Is that part of the process that you're working through? Definitely part of the process. I mean, I think a black belt is just based upon how much knowledge you have. Obviously, like, you know, if you're talking competitive wise, like, from when I started, I was able to beat most black belts. So it's just kind of how I was gifted from my wrestling experience. And, you know, the time will come when it's right, but I'm not in a rush at all. I'm continuing, I just kind of take every day for what it is and try to improve upon that. I mean, I want to give him the black belt. Nikki Ryan says he's not ready." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What is, I guess, like, as no geek folks, do you take that seriously, like the black belt?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Or like, how much does it come into play into? Yeah, I mean, it's like Nikki Ryan said, you know, it's based off of knowledge. Not just, you know, what you do out on the competition mats cause, you know, like he said, he had years of wrestling experience and obviously he's very physically gifted. So we grade based off" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "of the amount of knowledge that you have." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like, how do you measure knowledge? I think teaching is a good measurement of it, like how well you're able to show the moves and, you know, really make sure" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that you have an understanding of what you're doing. Yeah. It's an interesting rank. It's like something that takes many years to accomplish. And for a lot of people, it's truly meaningful. It's like it represents a particular step in a journey. But for you guys, it's almost like different because you've been so focused on competition that I guess if you take it seriously, it is a big step for you too. Like as martial artists, that's bigger than just being like top of the world competitors, right? So I thought it was a joke." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You guys are actually taking it seriously." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That he's a brown belt. That he's a brown belt and you're taking seriously the rank of black belt and like," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "it's part of your journey. I think by the time I get a black belt, I'll be no one pound for a pound. I think it'd be pretty nice to accomplish that as a brown belt." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And then maybe toss a black belt on top. Maybe get promoted on the podium. What do you guys," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "do you love winning or hate losing more? I definitely don't hate losing. If it pays the bills, I don't mind. Oh really? Yeah, but honestly, if I win, I feel more relief than anything rather than like excitement and stuff. I'm like, oh fuck, thank God that's over. What about you? I hate losing for sure, but I understand that it's necessary to get, to get to where you wanna be. And then winning is like, I mean, what I think winning is probably the closest you can get to like heroin or something. Cause I mean, we're all, like if you do have extreme success in a torment that you've been adamant about training for and competing in for a while and you end up winning it, I mean, I feel like you're on that high for days at a time afterwards. Heroin's gotta be better. You think so? I'm a stick with no, but... I'm not gonna suck dick to win. You suck at a heroin. You suck at a heroin." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I guess that's a good point, yeah. I guess that's a good point, yeah. Well, you know, like, because you come from a little bit of a wrestling culture, one of the things I really love is at the end of the match, when they lose, they just run off. They're like almost pissed off. It's like some mixture of anger and frustration" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "at themselves. I think sometimes people freak out on the mat. And I think that's just to show everybody, they're acting like they cared a lot. And really, maybe they didn't work enough to get to where they expected to be. And they lost, and then they had this big boost of emotion after their loss. But yeah, I mean, I think you just cry in the mirror" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and not to everybody else." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Have you ever cried watching a movie?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I don't think I've ever cried, period." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Have you cried watching a movie? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. The Notebook. I try to avoid those movies. It's actually a lie, actually. Titanic. The last part of a difficult wake up for me is I try to find a sad movie and at least cry. I better pound out. That really gets me out of the line. Low energy cutting." }, { "from": "human", "value": "The tears. Action. There's other following liquids I could talk to you about," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but let's just continue on." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Low energy. What about you, Nicky?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Love of winning versus hate of losing. I'm a very competitive person, so I for sure hate losing more than I like winning. I do think it's something that's kind of held me back over the past few years, because it makes it so that I'm not as active as I should be, because it's like I really hate that feeling of after a match that you just lost. So it kind of prevents me from competing, so it's definitely something I need to work past." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So when you think about a competition, the possibility of losing, which is always there in competition, is the thing that weighs heavy on you in the months and weeks" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "leading up to it. Yeah. My whole life, my financial stability, everything depends on my ability to go out there and compete and my ability to teach. So it's a huge hit to the brand if you lose. So leading up to matches, that's definitely" }, { "from": "human", "value": "something that's in my mind. So you guys are like world class athletes, but for me more like a hobbyist competitor, I compete a lot. The thing I was, because I really wanted to win, the thing I was probably most afraid of was not just losing, but like embarrassing myself. Even actually winning by stalling, that was the thing I hated the most about myself in terms of crying in the mirror. It's like being too afraid to take risks" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "after I'm up on two points or something. I think you've got to, in competition, sometimes it's good to take the emotion out of it. It's too easy sometimes to think about all my girls and the crowd and my family's watching. I want to win because they're there. But at the highest level, if you're emotional at all," }, { "from": "human", "value": "that's affecting you. Yeah. That's tough though. That's tough, especially leading up to when you're on the map" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "maybe, but leading up to it. I think it's okay to be emotional prior. If we know ADCC is coming up and we have a big match, definitely I'll go out and practice and I'll visualize, I'll put myself in that competition. That way, when it's game time," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "it's like I've been there a thousand times already. So not the actual competition, but even leading up to it," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "stepping on the map, all the walk towards it, all that? All that stuff. I'll do the same exact warmup for weeks on end until my competition day comes. That way, when I compete," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm just like, oh, it's another Tuesday at practice. What about you, Craig?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How do you prepare mentally for a tournament like ADCC? I push it completely out of my mind. Don't even think about it. Try to avoid any visualization, any rituals, warmups, anything like that. Block it out until the last second, yeah. Try not to think about it. I just go to training to have fun, learn a bit. So I try to approach competition the exact same way. I don't warm up training, do very little warmup for competition. Uh-huh, and you just step on the mat? Step on the mat. My philosophy is there's no warmups on the street. We're so vastly different. All right, so you legit don't warm up. No, I probably should now I'm 31, but I would just like in the gym, take it easy the first round. You know, like if I look around the room and Nicky Ryan's down, I might go, all right, we'll have an easier first round today. Jump, jump, jump." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So even for like the most high stakes matches, you try to push it out. Yeah, I didn't even think about it. What about like all the social, like Instagram posts you have to do about that match? You just make a joke out of it and kind of." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, I mean, it's kind of pretty silly, you know? We're just wrestling each other, you know? We put the meaning into it, but to someone that doesn't feel this sport," }, { "from": "human", "value": "it looks stupid. Well, all of human existence is pretty silly. Like what are we doing? None of us really know what's going on. We kind of have sex to reproduce. We get hungry, we eat, and then we're all chasing money in cars and whatever the hell in a capitalist society, or we worship a dictator in a authoritarian regime. Yeah, and then we get off on, we let power abuse us and then we just murder others because we get off on it. Yeah, and then eventually all of us will die because the sun will run out of energy because colonizing other planets is very difficult. So none of it matters. It's a good philosophy. It's pretty good. That's exactly what I was saying." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How does the sun run out of energy?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Call me there. It's like a, it's a nuclear fusion engine" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and it eventually burns up. Like when you get tired of training. Yeah. It's never happened. I try to get tired. I was like, dude, it's not working. I'm tired." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I was like, dude, it's not. All right, cool. So you legit don't care about losing." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It doesn't weigh heavy on you. I try not to list, like if I win, I try to block out all the compliments, all the niceties and stuff. So I try to do the same with losing. It's happened, move on to the next one, you know? Don't dwell on it too much. And sometimes make a joke out of it. Yeah, exactly. You know, losing, yeah. With the right joke," }, { "from": "human", "value": "we can make money off of the event that's transpired. That's just transpired. That's what's most important. Excellent. Thank you. I have a bunch of your merch." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Oh, nice. This one's the Jordan Burroughs ripoff." }, { "from": "human", "value": "All I see is silver. The way pronounced borrow is very, very sexy. Okay." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I throw lines at people and I try to gauge their reaction. Like sometimes I'll say something to Nicky and I'll be like, all right, that's probably crossing the line. You know what I mean?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "We'll turn it down to the public, the public. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not just, right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You have to think because it's crossing the line. Yeah, yeah. I get as close to it as possible. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I feel like you can't really cross it. And then cross it just a little bit. Just a little bit, yeah. Okay. Speaking of which, you said that I'm Switzerland in World War II since I'm friends with both you and Gordon and John. Very rich country. Are you a Hitler or a Stalin, by the way, in this analogy? Would you like to be Hitler or Stalin?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And should you make a t-shirt out of it or? Very rich country. I mean, a Nazi t-shirt, I don't know how well that sells. Yeah. I think it would, you know," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think that let's brainstorm on this one offline. I think since Hitler lost. So you got second place in World War II. That's true, that's true. I think that makes you Hitler. Anyway, to the degree that you can, can you tell the story of how the time you've had" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with the Donahue Death Squad and why you split the tape? That makes you Hitler. I competed against Gordon for ADCC and the EBI in 2017. And I remember I competed against him at ADCC and then we had the EBI event. And then I had a Kasai. I used to compete all the time, every week. I wouldn't even do the preparation or anything. I'd just be like trying to do seminars, make money, and then jump in and compete. And I remember I showed up to Kasai after I faced him twice and they were like four locker rooms and they put me with all the DDS guys. It was just me and all of DDS. And I think we had competed the weekend before. So I thought it was going to be super awkward, but it was actually pretty chill. And the Kasai was in New York and they suggested to come train that week. So I came trained, hung out with them a bit. Ultimately, the goal was to move to America and join a bigger team just because that flight to Australia is death. Australia is so far away from everywhere. It's kind of like, not realistic to base yourself in Australia when all the tournaments are in America. And then I went and trained with the guys and they just had a massive, massively deep talent pool in that room. Like show up to like a, meant to be 7 a.m., actual 8 a.m. class on Brazilian time. And there'd be like a hundred people in there, maybe, I don't know how many black belts, but a ton of elite guys. And I was coming from Australia, training with Lachlan Giles. But really that room was pretty shallow and like most people had serious jobs and stuff. So it was like, basically me just training with Lachlan, maybe a couple of other guys. And then to go to New York and have access to a wide array of training partners and guys that are training twice each day, I feel like that's what you really need. You need people that can train as much as you are. Work together. To get humbled in that room at first. For sure, because my style of the time was basically a rip off version of what they were doing. Leg locks came in. I remember just watching Eddie Cummings nonstop and just seeing this guy rip people's legs off. And I was like, you know what? That's probably a good move. You know, that looks like an easier path to victory than trying to beat these guys at what they're good at already, you know? My philosophy at the time was, if it's bothering old Brazilians, it's bothering them for a reason. It's probably effective. And that's the path I took to sort of try to rip off their moves. And then obviously to go into that room, try to do them to them," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "it's going to be a bit more difficult. All right, so that's how it started." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How did you end up here? How do we end up here? We're in Austin, Texas. I mean, I like to think of Puerto Rico as apocalypse now. John Danaher as Colonel Kurtz. Things got very weird in the jungle and the teams went in two different directions. But honestly, I mean, it's not really my story to tell. I had some issues with some of those people. At the time of the split, I got along very well with John. I feel like me and him connected very well. I don't know why that was. Maybe it was just because he missed home. He missed a familiar accent, Australian New Zealand accent. But I mean, I basically followed Nicky, left with Nicky, sort of that core group of guys left with Nicky. And I mean, I just back, there was personal problems, I just back Nicky basically." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Got it. Just sticking on you for a bit. Is there a part of you that, you know, finds it heartbreaking that DDS split up? Does part of you miss working with John and everybody?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Nick, can you steal man the case for that? I mean, I miss certain aspects of it, but I also do prefer the freedom of being apart from it. It's obviously a very strict regime under John Danaher. You know, obviously there's parts of it. I miss the parts the public doesn't see of John, the behind the scenes banter. I feel like he's very conscious of the image he portrays to the world. But basically it closed doors. He's always making jokes, always finding, I guess more in line with the Australian Kiwi sort of culture. But you don't really see that in the public eye. So that perspective, I do miss that relationship with John. In terms of setting aside personal differences, Gordon was a good training partner. Definitely a good training partner to train with. But obviously the negative things we can't really talk about outweighed all of those things. And we obviously had to make a decision to leave. But yeah. What is that happening in the jungle? The things that happen in the jungle. Should never be spoken of. That I personally cannot speak of. Yeah, but obviously I do miss certain aspects. Like, I mean, nothing's all bad." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Nothing's all good, you know? Should never be spoken of. Yeah, this goes back to your like," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "everything we're doing is silly. Yeah, exactly. That's why I don't get people to take it so serious, martial arts so serious. It's just, it's just pretty stupid really. Especially in the gi, it looks just, it looks bad." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, it's pretty silly with and without the gi. It's just a bunch of apes." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's silly about? It's just a bunch of apes. What's silly about no gi and what's silly about the gi and just mix and match bottoms there. You know what I mean? Wait, which one? Sambo, yeah. I see what you're doing. Brother, you come to my house and offend my people. All right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "This is, we're gonna go to every dark place, apparently. Nick, how did you get with DDS? Like, what was that journey like? Is there, try to see if there's things that you remember fondly" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you've gotten from the experience? All right, so the way I started training with DDS, initially I was training for like, well, initially I was a bouncer, right? I dropped out of college to pursue this fitness modeling career, I ended up signing with the Wilhelmina models up in New York, and I was like, trying to get in better shape. And while I was bouncing, kind of the talk of like, who's tougher came up between the wrestlers and a few of the bouncers that trained jiu-jitsu. And, you know, they convinced me to go to a practice and I went to my first practice over there. And for the most part, I just controlled everybody, got on top of them, was able to avoid like, kind of like, you know, shitty submissions. Cause I had an awareness of the sport and, you know, I'm a fan of fighting and whatnot. So, you know, I kind of understood it pretty well. And then soon after that, I joined a school and my second week of jiu-jitsu, I started competing, had pretty good success. You know, I was like subbing a few black belts and beating everybody like, you know, pretty decisively with points and stuff. And about three months into training locally, I got connected with Gordon Ryan and John Danner up in New York and I committed to, you know, make the drive up there as many days as I could. At the time, I lived in South Jersey and it was about two and a half hour or three hour drive without traffic to New York. Where in South Jersey? Gloucester County, collating New Jersey specifically, but Gloucester County. Yeah, so it was about 130 miles and without traffic, you know, about two and a half hours or so. But on the way back, man, it'd be three plus sometimes, you know, you're catching that rush hour. What year was this, do you remember?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "This was 2018. This was in 2018. I forget how young you are. Yeah, I was there before all that. All right, cool. Anyway, you're doing the long drive" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and then what, for a bit? Yeah, doing the long drive and then once I won ADCC trials, I was able to make a couple bucks and then I got my silver medal at ADCC and I was able to afford to live up there in New York in North Jersey area. So I lived up there, trained there full time every day and I just kind of sucked with the team throughout the turbulent times and found ourselves in Austin." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "In the jungle. In the jungle, yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What are the things we shall not speak of?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "What are the things that you remember that you've learned from John Donnerher" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "from your time spent with him? Yeah, I mean, I definitely learned a ton from John and the team as a whole. Like, you know, you have to be the guy that asks questions in that type of environment, right? Because you're not gonna get singled out to be that specific like star or the best guy in the room when you have all these other stud athletes. So I really had to seek out and figure out the kind of questions that I needed to ask. And once I became a bit more verbal with my training and I'm expressing all my curiosities about grappling to these guys, definitely helped boost my technique" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and my career as a whole. Yeah, did you understand what kind of stuff like technically you wanna get good at? What fits your body? What would be good for you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What are your weaknesses and all that? So initially, when I started grappling, I had an innate ability to just get to opponent's back. So I was like, all right, I'm good at getting to the back. Let me get, let me perfect controlling the back and then submitting opponent via rear naked choke. And then besides that, I really focused on leg lock defense. And then eventually came the Roddy lock pass where, you know, I'm really good at body lock passing my opponents now. And yeah, it just takes quite a long time because you have to find different sequences. And then there's always an abundance of opportunities that your opponent gets from these specific sequences." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So it takes a while. Is there part of you that finds the fact" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that DGS split up heartbreaking? I definitely, you know, having one person to go to that runs practice every day, that's, you know, consistent, it was definitely a gift, but now I've also gifted with many, many other partners. I have Nikki Ryan, you know, Craig Jones. Yeah, we have Ethan Krellis, Damien Anderson. So a full team of knowledgeable athletes that I can continue to go to with multiple questions. But yeah, definitely, it took me some time to adjust to training or to learning from, you know," }, { "from": "human", "value": "specifically my team and not just one person. We should mention for people just listening because you can't visually see that Nikki Ryan is currently terrified. And Craig Jones is currently enjoying the fact that Nikki Ryan is terrified. But anyway, can you talk about your, Nikki," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "can you talk about your time with DDS? The fact that Nikki Ryan is terrified. I started training when I was like around 13. You know, my brother Gordon had started prior to me and I really just went into training just as like a means to exercise and lose weight at the beginning because I was pretty fat as a kid. So I went to the first class, loved it, and then just started training every day at Gary's gym, Brunswick. And then during the summer, when I'd get off from school, they would take me up to New York to train under John. And, you know, I just absolutely loved it. I knew what I wanted to do with my life at a young age. So I ended up dropping out of school actually after my freshman year in high school. So yeah, 15, I ended up dropping out and just pursuing jiu-jitsu full-time, you know," }, { "from": "human", "value": "training every day up in the blue basement. Like what aspect of jiu-jitsu made you know" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that this is the thing for you? It was just something I just enjoyed being, you know, like on the mats every day. I love that there's, you know, a problem solving aspect to it. So it's, you know, it's mentally challenging, it's physically challenging, helps me get in shape." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So I just, yeah, right off the bat, I knew I loved it. Okay, so then we'll go to the jungle. What happened in the jungle? Yeah. And in general, like, uh, I like this, I like this, this is like this like shroud of mystery that she'll never be penetrated. That she'll never be like-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "We've got a book deal. Jungle. Yeah. And I like this. It's coming once. Book deal? Obviously he left Oscar, he's not riding him. Okay, I'll do the Russian translation here." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay, so what are things that you enjoy" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you remember from work of John Donner? Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously he's considered one of the best coaches in the world. You know, very charismatic guy when you see him in person. You know, I pretty much was, you know, kind of raised in the DDS, you know, that's where I spent the majority of my time every day. So I obviously had very deep connections, you know, with John, my brother, Gary, you know, even Eddie Cummings and stuff back then. So obviously I miss interacting with those guys every day. And, you know, it's like they said, it's good to have somebody to kind of crack the whip at you every day." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And John was very good at that. When you're like younger in your teenage years, you can kind of, you like have to get humbled, right? There's like a process to that. Yeah, for sure. And-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's a pretty good room to get humbled in, I guess. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I started training with them just when like everybody started to break out. Gary was like the biggest name at the time, just cause he had 180 CC trials already. And he had a crazy match with Cron, at Cron Gracie, at ADCC. But Eddie was just starting to break out. Gordon just started winning EBI. So I started training under John, you know," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "right when everything was exploding. What are the good things about life," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "about Jiu-Jitsu you learned from your brother? Both me and my brother never really wanted to, you know, work a full-time job doing something that we hate. And he was always, you know, a very confident person. So he just went, you know, fully started pursuing Jiu-Jitsu. So I'm very happy that, you know, he did that. And I ended up falling in his footsteps because you can ask these guys, I'm a lazy sack of shit outside of the mat." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So that's definitely one thing that I'm very grateful for. That he paved the way like you can make money" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "doing the stuff you love. Yeah, exactly. And he was a big reason, you know, why my parents eventually let me drop out of school. Because, you know, when they were coming out, there was no money in the sport. It was very hard to make a full living. Like if you wanted to actually make a living, you'd eventually have to transfer to MMA. And I feel like Gordon and Gary and those guys were, you know, some of the first people to make" }, { "from": "human", "value": "a very good living off of Jiu-Jitsu. At this party, you find it heartbreaking that you've split up from DDS, but also from your brother" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in terms of spending time in the mat every day. Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, growing up, you know, obviously he's my big brother. I looked up to him a lot. So I definitely, like I said, I'm misinteracting with those guys. I was pretty much raised, you know, in that blue basement, you know, that John was like, you know, a father figure to me. So I definitely, you know," }, { "from": "human", "value": "miss seeing those guys every day. Yeah. Do you have animosity towards Gordon? And does he have animosity toward you? And what is the source of that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And do you think you'll ever be able to forgive each other? Definitely initially, during the initial split, we definitely hated each other at the beginning, but it's definitely started to calm down. Actually, just prior to, you know, all this social media drama that's going on currently, he had reached out to me. And that was literally like the first time that we have actually talked since the split happened. So we didn't talk to each other for, what is it now, like almost two years. And that was the first time that, you know, we interacted again. And overall, you know, he wasn't, you know, aggressive towards me. I wasn't aggressive towards him. You were cracking some jokes." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So hopefully the animosity is going down. There's this Godfather quote that I wrote down. I recently rewatched it from the Don, from Don Corleone, Vito Corleone. The strength of a family, like the strength of an army, lies in its loyalty to each other. Is there some aspect of family that you miss, of the blood that kind of connects you," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you can count on? Yeah, my parents, you know, they both raised us that, you know, like family is everything. You never, you know, betray your family or anything like that. So I definitely, you know, miss them from time to time." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay, imagine you're like 40 years from now, sitting on a porch with a shotgun, drinking whiskey, looking over like all the land you've conquered. Looking back to this moment, is the reason you split up a bullshit reason? Or is it a good reason? From the perspective of the king who has now conquered the lands," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "have proven himself, have done everything? I think it was definitely like a justifiable reason for the team splitting. Like it just, with the way things were going, it just was not gonna work with, you know, all of us in the same room together. I was, started, you know, affecting training. People didn't feel comfortable in things. So I definitely think that it was a justifiable reason" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to split. The things that happened in the jungle, to be told about in the book. Is it gonna be an audio book?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Or is it just gonna be, who's gonna voice it? Might be a play. A musical, on Broadway. How's your singing voice? Mine's not so good, but Nicky has a beautiful voice. Does he? Of an angel? Nicky, I bet." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay. Speaking of the social media drama, I should mention that I've talked to, recently to Gordon a bunch. I've talked to him about talking to you guys. And he's had nothing but really nice things to say about you, Nicky Rod. And he has had nothing but bad things." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What were some of the things? Well, let's just go to the social media first." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Because the social media stuff that he said publicly is just like a warmup. It's like a foreplay, I guess. So Gordon sent you, Nicky Rod, flowers for Valentine's Day, posting on Instagram, I've been fucking him in every round and competition since we met in 2018." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The least I can do is buy him flowers. We didn't get the flowers. No, sir. Yeah, that was the question. Yeah, that was the question. Did you get the flowers? You never got the flowers. Did you get the flowers?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "He sent it to the wrong address. He did? Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What do you think he sent it?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "It was close, but it was wrong." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Did you appreciate the romantic gesture? I did. I was looking forward to the flowers and potentially chocolates in there," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but it was a bit of a letdown. Could you describe your recent match against Gordon," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the EBI match? Okay, so EBI match on UFC Fightbounce was a 20 minute match. And immediately, no match starts. I pull guard, and then I stand up. He pulls guard. And we have this kind of like back and forth where he's trying to dig for underhooks, trying to get on top of me, and he can't really find success. And then in the midst of me trying to work by body lock pass, Gordon's able to underhook a leg, and we end up in a leg entanglement. And then I'm able to transfer that leg entanglement to a 50-50 position still in the leg entanglement. From that 50-50 position, I'm able to separate his feet and actually get a few pops. And he actually said I broke his foot in that exchange. With the toe hold. The toe hold, yup. And after that? we had a bit more. I was just being working on top position, trying to get my body lock." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Time runs out and we go to overtime. And overtime. Can you hold on a second actually? Over time. Can you hold on a second actually? What does it mean to break a leg? I was very confused about. Okay, so. Is this like a expression or what do you mean? Which part breaks in a toe hold?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Okay, so. Okay, so in a toe hold, there's a few different grades of it. Like you could get a few pops and have some walking issues. And people consider that a break and then you could break it fully and have your foot be like a limp noodle. You know, I think what goes that? Killy's was the front of the thing? What goes that? Killy's? Katy's or something? Probably the ligaments. I mean, it's funny, like a lot of people say they broke something. But like to me you break bones, you tear ligaments. So I would imagine you probably had a grade three tear." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Great three how hard do you think is it? I always wondered that with Like a straight foot lock. How hard is it to break the shin or like the actual bones versus to tear stuff?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Depends how many steroids there are and obviously how much you're on You're one of the few guys that I have actually broken bones in competition" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, have I oh yeah, yeah" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Which bone did you break a spiral fracture of the fibula? Oh Twisting how did you break it? Oh, it was a heel hook Vinnie always used to say heel hooks don't work leg locks don't work But unfortunately age gets the best of all of us. I think he had some mileage on those ligaments Yeah, and the bone I guess yeah, so it's actually what the bone Yeah, he's ankle like disconnected from the tibia and the fibula, but the fibula definitely" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Snouts pretty bad that the" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Dynamics of that. Okay. Anyway, it went to overtime. What happened in overtime. Okay, I'll have an overtime Let's see trying to hang. Oh, okay. I go defense first Whistle blows I'm able to escape in like 17 seconds and then immediately after I go on his back and He gets out and exactly a 17 seconds. I'm like shit. All right. I thought I had a good start and then He gets on my back right after that and he's able to ride me out for pretty much the entire round After that he I got back on his back. He escapes and maybe like a minute and some change I think where I went wrong in the overtime is I should have went I should have been less adamant about chasing the submission and more aware of Collecting time if I kind of diverted my attention towards acquiring, you know time on the clock It would have been you know more my favor. But yeah at the end of my Overtime round it would I'm able to lock up a reneged choke over the face But there just wasn't enough time to fully finish, you know, I got a few seconds of squeeze in there I didn't have enough time to adjust then Good. Do you think if you're on steroids, he would have finished the choke? I yeah, I mean for sure for sure That's what I thought if you're on gear it you're you're changing the biology of your body You're you're adjusting your DNA for sure. If I adjust in my DNA, I mean It's a finish. That's what I thought. It's a finish you're implying you're a natural athlete is what I'm definitely natural athlete. Yeah" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Heavy completion. Okay So for people who don't know that the BI rules, it's an interesting rule structure where the overtime you put Yourself in a in like the worst possible position and the task is to escape and the other person gets the same thing" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What do you guys think about that rule set? I I like it just because I first of all I don't I don't like the idea of having to put somebody on my back but I do like the Definitive answer in the match like either you escaped in time or you got you know written out So the absolutely like you have a you get to the final winner. That's great I'd much rather have that then a close decision and kind of goes the other way What about you? I mean, honestly, there's all the different roles when I look at the role sets I just try to think of what rule said I could beat that individual in and I sort of gear myself towards that That's really the strategy there. I think there's some guys that like That stole a lot that you would love to have EBI overtime But at the end, you know, they're stalling until they have to give us a good position But then there's some guys that are so good in those positions. I'm like, oh, maybe we just do a regular match, you know" }, { "from": "human", "value": "What are the rules in the streets? Mmm the streets no time limit. Yeah, that's one of it There's also like concrete and cars great biting biting. Yeah poking art. Yeah So you don't like that rule set? Are there some people you would prefer in the street as a rule set?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "me probably not I Don't know the EBI, I mean it's tricky, you know depends on the opponent which rule set I'd want to do What about you Nick? What do you think about the rule set of EBI? Yes I think EBI is is very good from a spectator point of view, you know, people find it very entertaining to watch You know because you're people want to see submissions and you're putting people You're putting the athletes in a position where you know, you have like the highest percentage submission in the sport So obviously you're gonna get a lot of submissions My issue with it is it is a rule set that allows somebody that's overall worse at jiu-jitsu to win a match You know a guy can go out there and just stall and just get completely dominated for the entirety of regulation And then he gets to start on the guy's back. So that's that's one my my one issue with it" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "But also, I mean it's interesting to see Like the best people in the world have to be put in a really bad position and to see how good their escapes are For example, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, but it doesn't feel like a realistic. It's it's a fun thing to watch but it doesn't feel like the real fight" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, it feels weird. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I'll claim it if I start an overtime on someone I finish them I'll claim it. But if they submit me an overtime on last you're gonna deny It's good The issue is people like stalling to just win the overtime So where you got this guy that his whole training camp is just not get subbed and win the overtime" }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's a bit boring by the way I have a rose behind you if somebody gave me a Valentine's flower" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So if you if you miss the one from Gordon, I got one for you. Well, I'd appreciate that It's good to feel loved yeah, it's good to feel loved yeah, all right So, what did you learn from that match like a takeaways technically speaking like what what do you need to work on well I learned that I am pretty good Yeah, pretty good I got a you know a few I know exactly what my weakness is, you know It's the the leg lock department and I'm doing I'm doing a lot To to you know get better in that specific aspect. I think in defense attack. I would say yeah attack defense re-attacks Even if I wanted to offensively enter a leg, you know, I could use some work there as well but I feel like once I solidify like My like if I come in I'll become a black belt specifically in the leg lock department. I feel like I'd be unstoppable" }, { "from": "human", "value": "if you Nick you're a definitively beat Gordon Ryan. How would you do it? Buggy, would you do it? Buggy? Choke buggy? Choke buggy? Choke the list of the listener. I Don't even know how to describe buggy. Choke. What's what's the definitive like conclusion on that? Choke does it work? it's a it's a choke that you do when you're in a" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's the opposite of a dominance not submissive in a non-dominant position of bottom side control center?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, just an embarrassing submission to get caught with really. Yeah, but does it work?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It works on certain people" }, { "from": "human", "value": "For the listener he glassed over Nicky" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's embarrassing, but it's also what it's a way to frustrate the opponent for sure Yeah, it's a new part of the spot I feel like the Rotolo's brought her back into fashion and Even if you don't get it because it's one of those movies It's so embarrassing at the first sign of danger the top guy abandoned ship and you can basically retain guard" }, { "from": "human", "value": "By attempting a very embarrassing since of the threat of embarrassment. Yes, everybody people pull out very quick to avoid. Yes" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Everybody suffering the consequences. I think some people underestimate how" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Good of a submission is I mean like once you're locked in there is not too many defenses for a buggy joke. I" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I did that you is there an instructional on the way from you and the J Rod actually a little brother has one Oh, yeah, for real. You actually legit have Oh Wow" }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's awesome. Well, check it out. I mean there is I mean you're making a joke out of it, but it is a real" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like there's a system to it. I mean, yeah, I don't know we're going to I Mean you take an opponent that was just winning in a in a in a greatly dominant position and then boom in that same position" }, { "from": "human", "value": "They're pretty much they're losing, you know, it's a it's an interesting move. What's the name of the what's the name of it? Okay, the the buggy pedia. I thought there'd be something like very Craig Jonesy about it. Okay. Awesome I know you don't want to sort of reveal the secrets of what you're working on but in general, dude" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What some guy what does it take to beat Gordon, I guess okay, so what does it take to beat Gordon? I guess it would have to be some kind of a choke. I think any joint lock or anything like that He's just gonna let it break and stay in the match. So I don't even think you'd tap from like a Rania In a practice room. I remember like I had a told a couple times in practice room and he was just comfortable like working there I'm like, I'm not really putting much on it. I think he just, you know, maybe because of situations like that in practice, he kind of didn't respect my toe holds ability in, in a competition. You've done that to me in the practice. I have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I gave you a little, you know, give me a little pop and then he let go. I'll give you a little, you know, just, I was only type of set right there. Don't get into math. Hey, don't get into math." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay. Um, is there some part of that you think is necessary to be a champion is to like this almost unwillingness and competition to tap?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think it's definitely something to be said for people that are just like, uh, you know, willing to go that extra mile or to take that damage to secure their, their victory. Um, is there a part of you that like would hate to tap or hates to tap? Yeah. I mean, all, all of me hate that. Yeah. The whole part of me." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. Uh, isn't there a John legend song like that? All of you and all of me, very romantic. Yeah. No, we're sticking on that theme. Okay. I'm sorry. Uh, Oh, one of the things, uh, Gordon asked, I forget how you put it because I think there was a lot of words that would need to be censored involved, but he said, ask them, um," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "how it feels to have a zero five record against me with four submissions combined to me. Very romantic. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I wasn't sure he could count to five. Yeah. That's an impressive thing. Um, Oh, and five. I mean, I will say one thing. Nobody beats me four times. I love you so much. I did have a question. I did have a question for you. There was some controversy on your Twitter about a list of books. Yeah. And I was wondering why Gordon's book wasn't featured amongst that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "literature. Yeah. Well, it was only the first 30 books or like the first 20" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "books. And it would of course be in, uh, something interesting about Gordon. He's the first author that's written more books than he's read. Pretty good." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Uh, if you, if you face them and beat them, what, like, what's your take on what it takes to be Gordon? I mean, you guys kind of joke and they go pretty, pretty hard recently, uh, on each other. But as a fan of jiu-jitsu, I'm all in on this rivalry. It's just fun to watch. I mean, first of all," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I don't think I go really hard with him. I think Gordon is, he's pretty sensitive. You know what I mean? He's looking for a large insult in a small insult. And for me, like Australians, we just attack each other all day, every day. And for me, like, if I see someone that takes himself very seriously, that's like blood in the water. That's funny to me. To me, if I can just gently provoke and get a strong reaction, that's hilarious. Like Aussies, we would just attack each other. And the first person that gets upset, he kind of loses the exchange. So I think that is very, very entertaining." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Like if you were to beat Gordon, would the mental game off the map be part of it?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Think it would be a fact of a show. But I mean, I'm never going to come out too crazy direct with him. You know, like I don't, I, I find that like, if you get too upset on the line and you're going crazy, I find that I'd be embarrassed to do that myself. Obviously each, everyone's different. Everyone has a different style, you know, but like, yeah, I think mental, the mental aspect would play a big factor. I mean, mainly, because if I were to beat him, I would send him a message every day until I died. Yeah. Just to gently remind him that I got the last one, the last one. It's all that matters. We're not giving it, we're not giving it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "We're not giving it, we're not giving it. So like once you beat him," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "you're going to run for the rest of your life. I mean, run, but look back. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "With messages, ride, ride your horse into the sunset. Okay. Oh, by the way, you've talked very lightly, you've talked shit very lightly against Alexander Volkonovski's opponent very lightly. Have you received death threats or how are you still alive? Like Gordon, I would say people from Dagestan take a joke very well. Do they really? No. Oh," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "like, sorry, I'm slow. No, it's too aggressive mode in my head. No, I'm listening to you. No. Oh, like, sorry, I'm slow. No, I'm listening to you. Islam was pretty cool. I wanted to stir it up a bit, you know, because like I felt like that was a massive fight and it probably should have had more attention than it was receiving. So I wanted to just gently stir it up a bit. I feel like Sambo guys are in the same vein as catch wrestlers, very sensitive. You know, like obviously there's only three people in the world that do catch wrestling, Sambo, maybe 10 to 15. So I figured we could really provoke them with that sort of jiu-jitsu Sambo stuff. Islam took the jokes very well. The Russian fans, not so much, are very serious." }, { "from": "human", "value": "There's not many smiles in Russia, you know, they didn't take it as well. I'm trying to suppress the" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "anger, the rage is building up inside me slowly. So you guys mentioned steroids. I like that you bring that up after we talk about Russia for the record. Smooth, smooth segue there for the record." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Smooth, smooth segue there. I cannot condone the statements. I cannot condone that by the Aussie," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but I would love to travel with you to Russia. That would be a good time. Yeah. You might get" }, { "from": "human", "value": "killed with me now. Yeah, you might. No, I would be like the first to turn to backstabbing. You're like, I got him here. All right. Are most of the top grapplers on steroids?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, it's hard to say, you know, some people look like shit and they're on steroids. Some" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "people look excellent and they're not on steroids. It's so, so hard to tell. That seems to be the general consensus that a lot of people on steroids. I'm always a little bit, I don't know, I'll be honest. I've never, I've never seen anyone take steroids. I've never taken steroids. I don't even know if that's the right term to use or like TRT, any of that. So I'm very careful to not let my naive vitae lead me to take conclusions. But I do feel a little bit weird about the witch hunt nature of it. Some people a little bit too eagerly claim that others are on steroids just because they're successful. But at the same time, it does seem that a lot of athletes will do whatever it" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "takes to be successful. Yeah. I mean, if a sport doesn't test, you got to assume most people are going to do it. And especially now as more money comes into the sport, you got to assume more" }, { "from": "human", "value": "people are going to do it, you know? I generally like do AGCC and like, does you just do test? It's actually encouraged. What's encouraged? You get a pamphlet. Okay. They don't test. There's" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "no test. They test to make sure we're on steroids because obviously it's a big show for the UFC" }, { "from": "human", "value": "five plus in the future. You don't want anyone coming in out of shape. Very nice. Do you think using steroids in that kind of context and sports is wrong? Like stepping, stepping away if it's" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "not illegal. I mean, do you think ethically speaking? I mean, do you think ethically speaking? I like to assume everyone's on steroids and I have to feel bad about using steroids myself. Yeah. Yeah. Do you use all of the steroids? I'm over 30th. I'm over 30th, TRT, you know, that's the medical definition. That's the medical definition. That's the medical, okay. I'd like to meet your doctor. Therapeutic use, you know. Therapeutic, right. Like, how do you just feel about it? I mean, it is cheating for sure. Whether they test for it or not, I think it is cheating. Obviously, some people are going to say, oh, fuck, everyone's on it. I should be able to get away with it. Makes it even playing field. You know, but it kind of becomes rush from your leg because it's like, if one guy's taking a small amount and the other guy is taking a huge amount, he's going to reap huge rewards in the short term, probably be dead pretty early, but die a champion, mind you. You" }, { "from": "human", "value": "know what I mean? So it's like, I don't know what that line is yet. Yeah. What do you think about" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that? Do you think, do you think it's worthy to take health risks just for the glory? I think if you're just for the glory, I think if you're 40 about to die looking at a cabinet of gold medals for wrestling other men, it's probably not going to hit the same way on your death batch, you know? Sorry. In which direction? Like, is that a good thing or not? No, you're probably going to feel" }, { "from": "human", "value": "like, oh, fuck, I probably wasted a bit of health on that, you know? You think so? Isn't that," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "isn't that like the glory of it? Like you said, other men. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, in my opinion," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'll maybe wrestle a woman as well. What did you do with Gabby on Valentine's Day? What did you" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "take her? Did you guys? We filmed some new stuff for Onlyfans. For Onlyfans. We never start working." }, { "from": "human", "value": "The love affair is also a work affair. Okay. I don't know. There's something to that. I mean, like Olympic gold medalists accomplishing the heights, sacrificing everything, everything, the first 20, 30 years of your life for this silly little piece of metal. I think there's something beautiful to that. That's that conspires a lot, a lot of people." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And that's like the height of the human condition in a way. Like, why don't you survive? I'm just" }, { "from": "human", "value": "saying if you're in your deathbed early in life, we all die. We all die. All men die, but not all" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "men truly live, how many views? How many views? How many views are you willing to shave off" }, { "from": "human", "value": "for a gold medal? That's a good question. How many? How many are you willing to shave off for" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "gold medal. For silver medal? I mean for silver medal I'd shave a few off." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think two silvers makes a gold. It's worth five years." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Five to ten maybe. Shave off the bad years, enhance the good ones." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Well I mean you've sacrificed. You've got to sacrifice a lot of your life." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You continue to sacrifice. You don't see it as sacrifice. It's fun. I think training's fun being a bit adamant about it. Consistent. Gives you, I mean, I think we have a great routine, great ritual." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Definitely enjoy the process. All right well do you guys know this is bro science or or I'm talking bro scientists but do you know how long stairways stay in your system? Forever. Forever. Oh because it's like hey once you do it y'all on it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Hey once you do it y'all on it. Yeah. Just the knowledge. Yeah. All right. I think it's different for each steroid, right? I think some of them last longer than others. Depends if it's a urine." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You would think I would do, you would think I would do a little research before this ask you these questions. Why do you think most athletes and coaches don't talk about steroids? Like why is it such like a secret? Why is it so embarrassing?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think they probably talk about it like amongst the team and whatnot. Again I mean it's only it's gonna be more shady if it's like your your sport is tested or not or kind of in the wild west and the in the grappling world you know." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah but why don't grapplers talk about it? Because the team's cheating." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, it's it's kind of insinuated as a bit of cheating even if it's not like If it's not tested I mean still you're you're taking a person that could you know Maybe has good jujitsu good mechanics you putting them on the leg and they're subbing with a heel hook versus breaking your leg with A hook, you know something as subtle as that can make you know big differences" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Alright, this is gonna make me sound dumb But is it possible that steroids are not a huge help in grappling?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think if you're bad at jujitsu and you do steroids you're going to continue to be bad a jujitsu but if you're great at gear, I'm sorry if you're great at Grappling if you're great at grappling and then you also do gear it's gonna enhance what you're already You know good at to make you much better But like how much is the enhancement I guess is the question how much is is muscle valued right? Like if you're question if you're doing gear and you're not changing weight that much Like maybe it helps you a little bit But you know You're gaining 50 60 pounds of pure muscle and it's like that's a huge enhancement. That's another human, if your- That's the question." }, { "from": "human", "value": "If you're doing- How much does muscle a small human. Yeah. Does muscle matter in jjitsu? I guess is the question because it's possible" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that it gets in the way, is it possible? I say muscle matters, technique matters more. I also think that it will help you develop technique as well because obviously testosterone helps with recovery rate so if you're on gear you're able to train a lot more. Now, that being said, if you're not able to learn, obviously it's not going to help in that aspect. But if you're somebody that knows how to learn and get good at jujitsu, and then you add gear on top of that, you're able to do significantly more sessions throughout the week." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay, and by the way, gear's— Steroid. Steroid, yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Steroid. Steroid, yeah, right, yeah. I also think that you don't have to be as consistent in your sleep, in your food and stuff. If your own gear you have a little bit of leeway. But, I mean, being consistent in your diet and your sleep definitely would help the process." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Since you use most steroids of any athlete I've ever met, do you think steroids help jiu-jitsu?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think, obviously, it helps recovery and your ability to train more. But I've seen some guys go on steroids and then suddenly they feel like the incredible Hulk. And now in the training room, they start to rely more on strength than the techniques they had and actually, in some respect, hinders them and makes them gas more in competition because then they're using more of the muscle they never used to have." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So, you've implied that you're a natural athlete." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You said that. You said that skeptically." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Is this something you do for social media to talk shit to Gordon to imply that he's" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "not a natural athlete? Well, I only, pretty much recently on social media, I had this rebuttal saying that Gordon's on gear. And I only said that because after our match in our most recent match, the EBI rules match, he accused me of greasing, which is lubing up so I'm slippery during our match. And you did not? I did not. I was checked multiple times before and after our grappling event. And he still went out and accused me of this. So I was like, all right, as opposed to telling a lie, I'll just tell the truth about your steroid use, which shouldn't be that big of a deal in retrospect because he kind of admitted it and whatnot previously. So it's, yeah, I just kind of felt like I had to rebuttal and I didn't do it immediately because I was like, all right, I know I have this podcast planned, so I'll wait to do it on my friend Mark Bell's podcast, you know, get a little bit more exposure on it. And yeah, I knew he was gonna bite the bait, I didn't think it was gonna bite the bait that hard. I know he's a little stressed out about the comments." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And that was the origin of you guys going back and forth on?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, it wasn't so much back and forth. It was just I went forth and then he kept going back, back, back. Like, I remember one of my guys, the me and they were like, Gordon's made like 68 Instagram stories and 67 of them were all about you. I was like, all right. Well, I'm in his head for sure. Got us a few followers. We appreciate them. We did. They get followers. Even shout it out. Our B team wipeout program. So thank you. Yeah. Wipeout program. So thank you. Okay." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Speaking of which, what's the B team? How's it run? And why is it called the B team? Well, I mean, Craig, was the A team taken? I would have been." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "For me. Craig, was the A team taken? I would have been. For me, B's for best." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay. Best. All right. What does B stand for? For you? What does it represent? What is the ideal? Like, you know, Miyamoto, Musashi, philosophical foundation of B team. Aim low and achieve. If the bar is set low, you can't help but win." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Okay. That's Nikki's philosophy with women as well. Set the bar incredibly low, overachieved." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Set the bar incredibly low, overachieved. So what is the B team? How do you guys run it? Like what? Yeah. I mean, can you just talk about the school? How you found it? What is it?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's it like? I mean, pretty much just a regular jujitsu gym. We started it as sort of a pros only purple bow and above team. And we have me, Nikki Rod, Nikki Ryan, Ethan, Damien, as coaches. Am I missing someone? Oh, JB. Your memory is with your old age. Impeggable memory. Yeah. And we got JB coming up to teach wipeouts. But just your stock standard jujitsu team, we focus on more. We lean heavily towards the professional athlete side of things. We have a lot of high level guys in that. Yeah. Class structure, regular instruction and positional sparring, open rounds. But we sort of took a heavy slant on marketing side of things. We really try to blow up the YouTube channel. Obviously we sell a lot of clothing, merchandise and stuff. So yeah, we just sort of took a modern approach to a standard jujitsu gym because I mean, jujitsu gyms are full of some of the most boring human beings on earth. So we try to highlight. Strong words, Brad Jones. Strong words. Highlight the other side of things, you know, keep it pretty light hearted. That it can be fun. Yeah, that jujitsu can be fun. I guess that it can be cool too. You know, it's not just full of steroided up autistic people, you know." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Your memory is with your old age. Question from Reddit. Quote, need to hear some of the stories about drop-ins that led to the making of the gem of a video, the do's and don'ts of training a B team." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Any fun stories? Any ones that stand out, do you guys remember any police involved ever? We had a guy come about to kick him out. He was stalking two of the members. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's just crazy people, you know, like I portray a pretty insane image online. And I guess I am that a lot of the time, but I training, try to keep it while training around training. I'm insulting everyone. But while training, I try to keep it pretty serious." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But obviously the image I portray, Lou is in some of the crazier members. I mean, like the thing is about the, the Jimmy guys run is, is really professional. It's like friendly. It's like the light hearted joking is there, obviously the, you know, like shit talk and all that kind of stuff. But I guess it's a pretty safe environment. Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But the public persona might attract some, some maniacs. I won't say which places I've trained it, but it's obviously some places you walk into the room and it's very, very serious. Yeah. There's no smiles around. Obviously it's probably average training room in Russia, but no smiles, very serious environment. You know what I mean? And I definitely don't like that. I don't want to show up to training and be walking on eggshells, not know what the coach's moods like that day." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I want to go in, have a good time, keep it light hearted. What was in the video? What are the dos and don'ts?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Cause like the address is public, like anyone can show up. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What were the dos and don'ts?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Does anyone challenge you like to a fight? Not yet. Not yet. I mean, probably from other gyms in town, they probably, that's probably coming down" }, { "from": "human", "value": "the line, but, um, dos and don'ts. I'm all in on that. I'm, I'm, I would be excited as a fan to just watch. I love the drama. Not the drama. No, no, no. Well, a little drama, a little drop of poison is good, um, but ultimately it's the best grapplers in the world kind of, um, going at it. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. Cause I may, maybe I'm wrong, but I think there is an underlying deep camaraderie at the end of the day when you're like at the top of the world and you're like in the same" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "town." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What could possibly go wrong? It's like a shitty Western, but like an epic Western where like clean East, we're like the good, the bad, and the ugly. Of course I love it. I'm here just eating popcorn like that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Stare in the pot! I'm not staring at the box. I'm not staring at the box. These questions are from Reddit. What's up with that? That one. For sure. What's up with that? Yeah. I mean, what could possibly go wrong if you're the world's best grappler hates you and you're gently provoking him behind the scenes every day? Well, I mean. For sure. In Texas. Stolen his brother, held him for ransom." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It is like a story of a shitty Western I think. You now allow white belts to train with you." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's it like to open it up to a bigger audience? We haven't opened it up yet, but it'll be interesting to see. I mean, I feel like your higher belts, they really understand what the training room is. You know what I mean? White belts early, they're trying to find their place in the gym, could be kind of awkward and stuff in that environment. So I think obviously those white belts coming in will change the dynamic, but the white belts will have a separate white belt class is obviously for them. Given it's such a high level gym, it'd be tough for a beginner to be able to enter the more advanced classes. Well, obviously we're teaching more advanced techniques. So yeah, we've separated a white belt program, I believe 6 p.m. On a better Friday. Yeah, maybe we'll have a Saturday one as well, but it'll be interesting to see how it goes. We're trying to do things different, you know, like trying to do your traditional suggested gyms, obviously you're not going to teach beginners wrestling at all. We're trying to split it at least 33%, top game, bottom game and wrestling. So at least create more well-rounded athletes from day one. Whereas I feel like most traditional jiu-jitsu gyms might have no gi once a week, that'll touch wrestling, very IBJF heavy techniques." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But again, the sport's changing for sure. Just to take that on, how does the beginner get good at jiu-jitsu? Like given that you're starting this white belt, what's your philosophy on that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Obviously, buy all of my instructionals at full price. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Not during a sale. Okay. Not during a sale. Okay. That would go a long way. For those of you who are Russians, I'll send you instructions or all the forms so you know how to steal it. Yeah, discount code. I'll share, I bought them all." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So I'll just send that to you for free. I mean, we do have the Makachow 50 discount code, you know? Yeah. Offering discounts to help him out for the rematch. I got the, nice." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Well, I got a 100% discount for you if you need it. But that said, your instructionals are both hilarious and brilliant, man. It's one of the most respected instructionals. Oh, thank you." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "With incredibly great names. Yeah. It probably loses me sales, honestly, due to removing the seriousness of-" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Because they think it's going to kind of suck." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's going to be some funny gimmicky thing. Oh, I mean, some people don't even know if it's a real product. That's a big hurdle I have to overcome as they see it. And they're like, is that a real thing? That's a problem. But how does the wipeout get good? I think they just, I mean, just have to show up, just have to put in the effort, try to focus on using techniques and training rather than just fighting to the death, you know? Although that is entertaining for us to watch," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "to wipeouts fight to the death. Yeah, but what are the techniques you should focus on? Like, what's the process? What does it mean to show up? Like, how much drilling? All that kind of stuff. Like, if you were to optimize the first six months of a beginner, there's a lot of people who listen to this and haven't tried, they've been curious. I have a lot of friends who haven't, who are like, you're just too curious." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They're constantly looking for an excuse to start. I think it's just got to be as simple as possible. You know, like we shouldn't be teaching more advanced movements. I mean, obviously in the grand scheme of things, there's highly advanced techniques and then there's slightly advanced. And I think trying to teach those guys real specific positions even, like real specific types of guard is just beyond them. I think the best way to learn is through problem solving. And I think if you show the technique before they've discovered that problem, the learning is sort of held back. So I like the idea of using kids style games to show them a problem and then use the techniques to fix the problems they've just discovered." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think that's the best way to learn. Can you give an example of a problem to show them before you give them the techniques?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like, what are we talking about? All right, so say you wanted to teach posture in wrestling. You could create a game where one guy, the game might be get to a leg or get to two legs, control the leg, like super simple. But the rules, the constraint would be one guy is forced to keep upright posture and one guy is forced, well, not forced, but he's allowed to keep a bent at the hips, lower posture. And honestly, within the kick that constraint, the guy with the better posture is going to have more success. He's going to have a better posture to secure a leg or secure both legs. And therefore you've demonstrated the flaws of bad posture without having to explain it to them" }, { "from": "human", "value": "before they really tested that out. Okay, and then the result of that you would realize" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that the bent over posture is better. Yeah, you have that aha moment rather than just being having it spoken to you." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You wrote Craig, I'm a big fan of constraint based learning, I guess was just what you're talking about. I love presenting beginners with a problem before the solution like here attempt to hold side control with no cues on how then I see how the guy got out and addressed issue by issue cross face and hip control and so on. Okay, so what are some other examples like side control?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, that would be an excellent one, side control. Like obviously we say you secure a cross face so they can't turn into you, much easier to have them try to hold someone down without explaining what a cross face is and then use that technique to address the problem they've just encountered. So I think you could do that with a lot of areas of jujitsu, like even more advanced, say 50-50, obviously a mirrored position where you both have access to each other's heels. Most people will stall out of that position and keep their feet crossed. I think a great constraint for both of them, you can't cross your feet. Now you have to learn how to slip the heel hook when they expose her and how to safely re-attack of your own. So the constraint" }, { "from": "human", "value": "is you can't be too defensive in that position and I think the rate of learning increases. Why do you think the rate of learning increases? Like why do you think that works?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Because you encounter more problems. Say in that situation they're going to get your heel a lot more in whatever period of time you allocate the drill for than if the legs are crossed. I don't think the hard part splitting the legs to get to the submission. I think the hard part's practicing control while they're trying to slip it at a later stage and then obviously trying to slip your heel when you're in more danger also makes you more comfortable in that bad position if you're used to doing it with open legs." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, I think that probably that style of teaching forces people to focus on, it's so easy to fall into focusing on memorizing particular details of a technique without thinking like why the hell does this even work. Exactly. If you don't have that you get to focus on from as cliche as it sounds from first principles like how the hell do I get out of this? Why does this even work? Why does wrestling work? Why do you have a bent over posture? You get those start to ask those kinds of questions. Which is kind of interesting because it's not obvious to me that bent over posture is the right posture for Jiu Jitsu, right? I'm confused actually about that. I don't know. About the correct posture? Yeah, for Jiu Jitsu, like what's the right answer? I think Banaba posture's still good for Jiu Jitsu. Even with the Judo and all that... Like why are so many Jiu Jitsu people like at a high level" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the posture's higher up? I think Banaba posture is still good for Jiu Jitsu. Well, I think wrestling posture is just a bit too low because it's not necessary, right? If wrestlers are like low enough to the ground where your hands can touch the mat But in jiu-jitsu, it's kind of a mix between wrestling and judo or Greco-Roman wrestling. So I think it's just a bit more laxed, and it's bent over, but it's not upright, and it's also not super low. A bit more room for error, too, because obviously the jiu-jitsu guy's shot isn't going to be" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "as athletic or as quick as a wrestler, especially a wrestler with shoes. So it actually comes down to the fact that jiu-jitsu people, just on average, even at" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the top level, are not good at shooting. I think so, yeah. I think, obviously, all the wrestlers in American stuff, they're starting super early, super young. You know what I mean? By the time they get to the same age we are, really, in our sport and stuff, they've spent" }, { "from": "human", "value": "much longer doing the actual sport in the average jiu-jitsu guy. And then there's another level of wrestling, of course, with the Soviet block that's just" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "unachievable for your kind. But you, an Australian rugby, a former rugby player, did pretty good." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Rugby, is that kind of like American football, but much less money?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is that what that is? Much less money, much tougher, I would say. But who knew that the cure to the Dagestani wrestling were the Aussies? Were the Aussies?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Okay, let's go there. Your friend, your training partner, Alexander Volkanovski, you helped him prepare for the Islam Makkachev versus Volkanovski fight. Who do you think, first of all, won that fight?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's a tricky one. How is that the tricky question? I will say, when I was in the corner going into the fifth, I personally believed live that Volkanovski probably needed a finish to take the victory." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But you have to think that way, right, in general? Or you, like, legitimately?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's a great area, because the judging, who knows? Plus, I was like, wait, we're in Australia, where's this bias, you know? We've got some Australian judges here. I was really hoping we'd get a bit of bias on that. Unfortunately not. Hopefully they lose their jobs. But again, yeah, it was a close fight. I think sometimes you're blinded in the moment, because again, everyone counted Volkanovski out. The crowd's behind him, so everything he does is going to get a huge cheer. You bias towards the smaller guy. You bias towards the underdog. So whatever the underdog does has a bigger impact in your mind, and sometimes they can bias as the fight goes along. But yeah, super, super close fight. I would really love them to have a rematch, but obviously that's going to hold up both divisions, so I don't know if they'll be able to do it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I was really hoping we'd get a bit of bias on that. Do you think they'll do a rematch soon? I mean, that was an epic fight. I was listening to the fight companion during it. They all thought Volkanovski. So they biased strongly the opinion?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Round two was the tricky one." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Anyway, I'd love to see that like run it back and do three, actually, as there's an epic fight." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What was the brief conversation you had with Islam Makayev and his team? I didn't know how we'd take the joke, because obviously Khabib tried to flying eagle kick Dylan Dennis in the face. So I wasn't sure how my humor would go, but I mean, Dylan must have said some worse things to me. I was just playing around. I mean, you can't really take anything I say serious, come across like an idiot. But so when he was coming up to me afterwards, I was like, oh, I don't know what he's going to say. And again, he maybe he would have been more upset if he had lost, but he just received the judge's decision. But he came up, I went to check his hand, he gave me a big hug and then pretended to throw me. And then I thought the interaction was over and then he circled backs. That's why I was so awkward. I was like, oh, he's coming back. He wants to say he wants something else." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But he just said, why didn't you teach your boy how to escape the body triangle? Oh, wow, interesting." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What did you say to that? What did you say to that? I said, well, I mean, obviously, you've got to learn how to finish a re-naked choke. Is that what you said? No, I didn't say that. I was laughing. I was laughing. By the way, I should have said that, like, get out of here before the Aussie crowd attacks" }, { "from": "human", "value": "here, you know? What do you think about the body triangle position that we're in? It seemed like for the first time, it seems almost like Valk was dominant in that position," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "which is kind of weird. I mean, damage is meant to trump control MMA judging." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Damage is the number one factor. Do you think the judges saw that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What did they score that as? I think they all scored four towards Islam. Three and five, two of the judges scored towards Valk's. One of the judges scored three for Islam. It was 49-46 for one of them, and the other ones were 48-47. I think, again, the confusing round was round two. I don't think anyone scored the body triangle round for Valk's, which I wish they had." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Three and five. Volkanovski was and is still arguably pound for pound greatest fighter in the world." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How long have you known him? I don't know the first time. I met him before he was in the UFC when I used to live in Melbourne. He came down to train at Absolute. And then we really connected on Ultimate Fighter. One of his guys who was going to bring to Ultimate Fighter, Brad Riddell, pulled out last second. So he called me when I was in Puerto Rico, and he's like, do you want to coach on tough for five weeks? And like I said, Puerto Rico was apocalypse now. I was like, yeah, get me out of here. So I jumped on that opportunity, and we were in Vegas five weeks together because he was meant to fight Ortega. And then he got hit with COVID real bad, got stuck in, I think he was in hospital for maybe one to two weeks. And then before he flew back to Australia, they were like, all right, maybe we just do you guys as the Ultimate Fighter coaches. So I jumped on board with that. And that's really when we've become close. Obviously, I was useful in the Ortega fight, help him get out of submissions. He fought then Korean zombie Max Holloway. I basically just held the bucket at that point in the corner. A couple of striking fights. And then again, yeah, we had to tackle the Islam problem. So I did spend five to six weeks down there preparing for that." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "How did you tackle the Islam problem? How do I attack? Was you somebody who barely knows anything about wrestling? Having to..." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Obviously, it doesn't take much. How do I attack?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Obviously, it doesn't take much, especially Russian wrestling. Did the beard help or like what? In all seriousness, what were some of the key ideas that you worked on with Volkanovski" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to prepare for it? I had the help of Frank Hickman. Hickman was down there too, one of the Hickman Brothers wrestling coach. So we were sort of like problem solving. I mean, basically, we were confident in Volk's fence wrestling, his cage work. He's super good on the cage, super like under respected in that position. And we knew that if you were able to take the scrambles to the cage, he would be effective against Islam. And Islam is background in Sambo freestyle wrestling, but I mean, honestly, he's probably got the same experience on the cage as Volk's. Obviously, some of those wrestling skills will translate very well to the cage, but the cage is still somewhat of a gray area and equalizer. And Volk's, again, incredible ability to stand up, incredible defense on the cage, which you saw. We worked on strategies to get up and a ton of submission defense. Islam loves kamuras. Obviously, we're naked from the back, armbars, those are sort of in arm triangles, dominant submissions. But again, the guys he submitted, not grapplers, apart from Charles Olivera. And again, Charles Olivera was basically knocked out at that point. So it was still impressive. He submitted him. But again, I always told people this. They thought it was crazy. I was like, Charles Olivera versus Islam in a grappling match, Olivera is going to win" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that match." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like submission grappling. Submission grappling. Yeah. I think that's a skill set, I think Olivera is a more dangerous grappler. So we didn't even come into it thinking Islam was this unstoppable boogeyman that people make him out to be. So we approached it from that, just focused on the techniques, ability to get back up, using turtle to get back up, using turtle to scoot to the cage to get back up and hand fighting from there, keeping it pretty safe. But what makes Volk so special, I think is his gas tank, gas tank and his willpower. He's just unbreakable. The Dagestani guys, Khabib, Islam, they are good at submissions, but they break guys mentally and they fatigue him. And then they take the submission that's offered. Olivera is the guy that can jump on submissions and have an incredible technical ability to finish those submissions, whether you're fresh or you're tired. And then you combine that with Volkonoski who, incredible willpower, never gets tired. You're never gonna break him. And as you saw, he only attempted one submission the whole fire." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Is that learned? Is that trained or are you just born" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with that mental toughness? It's a good question. I mean, he's like an anomaly, like the entire fight camp, not nervous at all, supremely confident. The whole fight week, completely confident. He just has an attitude like, oh, everyone cast me out, we'll see. You know what I mean? Islam, he's like, let's see. No doubt. No doubt at all. Super relaxed. Up until about five minutes before, and then he starts to amp himself up, he's like, you are not taking this bell from my family. Gets into that sort of mindset. He actually says that out loud. You can't teach that survival." }, { "from": "human", "value": "He didn't even take a fight, you know? Have you guys ever been pushed to the limit like that" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or broken in a grappling match? I'll do it in practice. I'll push myself to think it might pass out or die or something, as far as how tired you get. Because in a match, they try not to ever get close to that in a match. Yeah, you try to, because it's important to understand where your exhaustion point is. But yeah, if you have to push to that limit in a match, you're probably doing something wrong. You know, like you see in matches where guys sprint the last like minute, they try to win the match in the last minute. And it's like, you definitely had some mistakes leading up to that if you have to," }, { "from": "human", "value": "gotta go balls to the wall. Okay, but has there been other times in competition? Especially like early on, because you wrestled pretty hard and wrestling is pretty exhausting. Like, not wrestling, but you know, wrestling style kind of thing," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "going against the best people in the world. Yeah, I mean, I definitely, again, I think in practice it's important to do that hard work that where competition is much easier. You know, I think if you redline in practice and you really push to like death's door, then once you're in competition and you're working with, you know, you're being fresh in a comp," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, it's much better, you know. Have you ever been to that thing where Dan Gable talks about always wanting to be to a place where you can't get off the mat? Like, you work so hard in the training room, you can't get off the mat. I think he says he's failed at that in his career." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "He was always able to at least crawl off the mat. Yeah, I definitely never like actually died on the mat, but I felt like I was gonna die, you know? Sure, sure." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Felt like I was gonna die, you know? What about you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you quit all the time? I get a lot of cramp. I'm like, you know what? You got me, man. Let's do this again tomorrow. That's it. If I'm asking Craig for a role," }, { "from": "human", "value": "he's in the bathroom somewhere. Do you see the value of pushing yourself to that place where you're knocking on dust?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, but within safety, you know, because obviously the most serious injuries occur when you're tired over training and stuff like that. So I think like taking a page out of what those MMA fighters do, especially Volks with his training, like he's not necessarily pushing crazy in each round, but he's doing extra conditioning, assault bike stuff, crazy workouts outside. And he does do some crazy training workouts, but all safe, very safe. When he's red lining like that in the training room, it's a very controlled, safe setting. I think to do that in Jiu-Jitsu, I guess some of these lunatics out there that are trying to kill you," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "especially when you have a name, can be dangerous. So your approach to Jiu-Jitsu is don't warm up and don't try too hard. No safety. For safety." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, for safety, though. No safety. For safety. No, for safety, though. Yeah, longevity, you know? And talk shit about Russians. I got it. I got it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I hear you. I got it. I hear you. Oh, you mentioned cage work. What's interesting to you that you learned over all this time about cage work? What's interesting about the dynamics of that? Are you talking about both the control in the dominant position, but also getting up from the bottom" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "while you're against the cage, all of that? The added dimension of that cage, that wool being there, changes a lot of stuff, right? So obviously, in some ways, it's a much lower impact wrestling style because you can't be spread on. You can shoot. The cage is gonna block their feet. You're gonna be able to chase down their hips. It's just a completely different fight. And again, because of Islam's judo skills, that upper body control, as you see, he's able to use against the cage, like the inside trips, sort of the Ichimada style, her Aigoshi throws. So obviously, those skills do translate. But yeah, I think the cage is a great equalizer for a lot of things like athleticism and stuff. It takes away a huge speed advantage," }, { "from": "human", "value": "or aspect of the fight. So he's really good at standing up. Is there, I assume he learned all of that from you" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and your instructional just stand up? I mean, we were so confident. I was like, you know what? Why don't we put this thing out a month before the fight? Yeah. Maybe the illegal download hasn't made its way to Russia yet," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but it was there for him. Can you explain to me what's in the instructional just stand up?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like, what are the ideas? I mean, the old school way to stand up, people talk about the technical get up. You know, the old Gracie put the hand, but I mean, that doesn't work for 20 years. You know, if you look at everyone that gets up at MMA, they're using turtle to get up, they're using wrestling to get up. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which is counter to what pure Jiu-Jitsu says. They say, don't expose the back. Don't ever expose your back. I think Jiu-Jitsu is a terrible way to get back to the feet because if you were to retain guard and go half guard or close guard, super hard positions to get up. You're basically putting yourself in a leg tuck for wrestling. So I think you need to borrow from wrestling to learn how to get up in an MMA fight. So basically how to safely expose your own back while not allowing them to get hooks and use that to get back up, or at least not allow them to get two hooks. And that applies for MMA especially. For MMA especially, because obviously striking is a factor, but if they are striking, they don't have locked hands around your body, means you are able to move. You are able to make an attempt to get back up." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You have to choose between control, submission, or strikes. Post from Reddit, why does Craig Jones push so hard for a bottom is bad, Jiu-Jitsu? What is so bad about playing bottom guard such as half guard or Delahee? Those are the two options. No one likes a bottom. Why would I want to get up? It's the question for all of you." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is the bottom a bad place to be? No one likes it. I mean, the bottom's bad if you don't want that guy on top of you. That's why I look at it, you know? That sounds like something a cowboy would say, but I don't know if that's much meaning." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think the point of Jiu-Jitsu is both are dangerous" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "being on bottom and on top. I think the longer the match is, probably the favorite is the top guy more, just because every movement the bottom guy makes is probably carrying your weight, carrying that gravity on top of you. So I think it's a bit more efficient passing from the top as opposed to sweeping from bottom. Bottom's reactive, top is active. The top player decides how to engage, how to approach the guard that can use angles, they can use footwork, they can throw people, throw the legs by. So that's an active position. Bottom's reactive. Reactive, you're gonna get fatigued. Yeah, I think it's very difficult to gas somebody out while playing guard, but I think it's very easy to gas somebody out" }, { "from": "human", "value": "when attempting to pass it. Well, you guys are talking about gassing people out, but is there more dangers from the bottom," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "like in terms of submissions and all that kind of stuff? I'm back and forth, because I'm a top player, but I understand the value of being on bottom. When I do play guard, bottom, I feel like the submissions come much easier. And when I'm on top, they come also pretty easy, but maybe I just take a different route. Talking to two cowboys, talking to two cowboys, talking about shit, talking about shit, saying, yeah, it's up on the straight bottom" }, { "from": "human", "value": "in the shades, that's the thing. What was the hardest part of the training for the training camp for Volkanovski? You're just experiencing world-class MMA fighter's training and giving your approach to jiu-jitsu" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of not trying to harden no matter what. I mean, from my perspective, there's a lot of pressure for that. Like that's a lot of pressure for me to go in and think that I could possibly figure out a way to help this guy address this guy that's basically never been beaten. I think he got knocked out once, but basically not really even been put in bad positions. You know what I mean? So that's a lot of pressure on me, because Volkanovski's such a great guy. Jiu-jitsu's different. You coach a guy who loses, he has time to tap, but in every moment, you could get severely hurt. There's a lot more weight in what you need to do as a coach. You have a greater sense of responsibility to their health and wellbeing. Obviously, I know Volk's kids, I know his wife. They're putting faith in you to not just win the fight, but keep this man safe. So from my perspective, a hell of a lot more pressure" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "coaching him as an MMA fighter. So almost like the psychological aspect" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of doing the best you can for him." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Exactly, yep, yep, yep. What was the hardest about the actual training? Was it the technical aspect of trying to figure out the puzzle of Islam, or was it like being a good training partner in figuring out how the grappling would work, basically playing your best impression of Makachev? Were you trying to actually impersonate him? No, not just visually, but like in style. Yeah, definitely, definitely visually. You're not as good looking, but go ahead." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, a little taller, yeah, a little taller, but in terms of the training, yeah, I mean, Islam's known as incredibly strong glass. Obviously, I'm heavier than Islam, so theoretically, I should be able to replicate that strength difference. And then in terms of grappling, targeting those submissions that Islam does, like focusing on those in the training room, focusing on the way he holds half guard, and really in the grappling sense, trying to replicate him on the ground, and then, yeah, I wrestle with him on the wall a ton, trying to replicate, obviously, to the best of my ability, a lot of the stuff he does on the wall, body lock heavy, inside trip, Uchimadas, and just constantly putting the work on vox, you know what I mean? Like constantly chaining attacks against him," }, { "from": "human", "value": "really replicating that. As he's trying to get up and escape and all that kind of stuff, so all the submissions," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "both judo and submissions, just attack and attacking. Exactly, and there's only so much you can do really, because obviously he's been, I think he's been fighting a long time, so it's like you're trying to polish what he already is good at. You can't just completely create an entirely new game for him in the space of six weeks. So you're trying to take what he's already effective at, add to it. And luckily, a lot of the stuff he's already very good at" }, { "from": "human", "value": "was easy to add to for the fight. Question from Reddit. I'm very curious why other MMA fighters don't employ high-profile grapplers from B Team and New Wave to improve their grappling, this from the subreddit. By now, it's clear that they are levels above almost everyone in MMA, simply because fighters there don't specialize in grappling, but it doesn't seem like fighters, even champions, get training partners from the most successful teams. Why is that the case? From your experience, why doesn't it call you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You might now, nah, nah, put in a good word for me. Oh, I will. Yeah, that's right, he takes a joke pretty well. Yeah, yeah, no, no, you'll be walking with open arms. I think your average Jiu-Jitsu coach, MMA fighters have bad experience with Jiu-Jitsu guys. Jiu-Jitsu doesn't have a massive place in MMA. Obviously, rounds, stand-ups, it's hard to submit people. Your average Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt doesn't know anything about holding a guy down, doesn't know anything about how to stand up. So I think if you overly utilize that Jiu-Jitsu guy that hasn't had experience in more modern no-gi or training MMA fighters previously, it's gonna be a complete waste of time to them." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think they're smart enough to realize that. Do you have, and do you guys, do you have interest in MMA at all? Just not even like, well, certainly just competing yourself," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but just understanding the puzzle of MMA. Yeah, I mean, I've been a fan of mixed martial arts for a very long time before I trained Jits. Personally, I'd much rather coach than fight, but I mean, I'd fight somebody for a good check and I get to pick the opponent, have a proper camp. Okay. I can think of a good Atlanta, you know. What you doin', what you doin'? Who's that? All right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Who do you think is the greatest MMA fighter of all time? Craig, I'm gonna start with you. Just as a fan of the sport," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "it's somebody who's been deep in it. I mean, from my perspective, after that performance, I'm gonna say Volkanovski, because he was able to decisively out-strike Max Holloway, one of the greatest strikers in the sport, and he was able to hang with the wrestling of Islam, Akhachev. And in terms of Ortega, he was able to survive Ortega, who has some of the most dangerous missions in Jiu-Jitsu." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So I think, in my opinion, technically, he's the best. So even though he technically lost," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "he still has the crown. He's proven himself. Given the size difference given he's movin' up in weight. Yeah. I think all those facts," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I believe so. He's proven himself, really. The underdog, everything, the pressure." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Did you think he would be able to hang in any of the wrestling exchanges with Islam?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "No, no, no, no, I was really surprised. That's why in my eyes, like, it's kind of funny, like, winning at the end of the day, I feel like judges influenced that. Although I did think Australian judges would rob the other way, but I was assuming. They kind of, somebody paid somebody and not enough, maybe. But in general, I just thought he won sort of in the eyes of what martial art stands for. Like, sort of go into the fire and survive and thrive and finish the last round strong, which is kind of, like, spiritually is what a victory is. So I wish we kept going, like. One more round. Yeah, exactly, that kind of thing. Well, what about you? What do you think? Like, who are the fighters you admire?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like, who do you think is the greatest of all time? Winning. One more round. Yeah. I think the fighter I paid most attention to was John Jones. You know, he has a great ability just to mix the high level striking, high level grappling. Although his, you know, jiu-jitsu by itself isn't, you know, probably isn't like, you know, super high level, but his ability to mix everything together, I would say he's the best. And he's a fellow, you know, heavier guy, heavy weight now. So it's nice to see, you know, how those guys move" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "at that weight." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And a fellow natural athlete. See what I did there? All right, what about you, Nicky? Yeah, if I had to pick a goat, I would probably have to say Khabib, just because he was undefeated and he had a very, you know, high finishing rate. You know, very few of his fights actually went to a decision. So he just, overall, he dominated almost every single opponent he went against." }, { "from": "human", "value": "The dominance. I mean, we've been joking about it, but Craig, what do you think makes the Pakistani fighters so good? Like from this small region of the world," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "so much dominance has come. I mean, obviously the amount of freestyle wrestling champions from that region probably puts their wrestling above and beyond the best in all of MMA. And obviously a lot of, even in the Olympics, a lot of champions out of there, right? So I think that skillset combines with them adding effective pin controls on the ground and Jiu-Jitsu submissions. But again, I think it's that hard training those guys like Khabib would maintain that pressure throughout the entire fight and break guys down. Their ability to fatigue guys to a breaking point." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think it's something they do best, best. I wonder what that is. What is that technique? What is that? What is it about their upbringing? Because it's just that part of the world. Over with the Satya brothers with the freestyle wrestling side to all the mixed martial arts people. It must be part of the culture also. They must be doing something. I don't think I've never, I haven't seen a convincing explanation of why yet of what's specific about their training, what's specific about their culture that creates that. Okay, what do you think about like the flip side? Do you admire somebody like Conor McGregor who knows how to create a spectacle?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You, Craig, who likes spectacles? Yeah, I mean, I really admire early Conor McGregor because I found him absolutely hilarious. You know, like I felt like that was peak banter. I feel like he just took the American world by storm. Aussies, British, Irish, Kiwis. I believe we have a way better level of banter and attacking each other. And it's almost too easy to pick on Americans that take themselves very seriously. I mean, arguably even other parts of the world too," }, { "from": "human", "value": "the far east of Europe, you know? But that's the tricky thing with Conor. I think he was, I feel like you could have gotten in the same kind of trouble because the Russians really took everything very seriously." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They weren't joking around. Yeah, that's the problem. It's like, it's a bit of, I mean, some things he's definitely takes too far, you know, but I felt like early on he had the right balance where he wouldn't really cross the line, but he would do enough. He just took it to another level, obviously later in his career. But I think early on, a bit of innocent banter." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It gets a lot of eyes on the sport though. It's probably by far the most popular combat athlete of all time because of that. I feel like you have to cross the line. I don't think enough people appreciate the values" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "he's brought by crossing the line. He's making a sacrifice crossing the line." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's gonna affect him for the rest of his life, you know? I see, I don't think so. I think he can always walk back. Because I think unlike, people might disagree with this. I, well, yeah, I thought he always radiated a respect for the opponent like afterwards and underneath it. It felt like the same way you do. When I hear you shit talking, I don't see a person who really means it. I see a person who's having fun with it. I always saw Conor McGregor the same way. I don't know. But people took it like extremely seriously. But I saw the respect, like the common respect the martial artists have for each other" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that felt like it was always there. If you don't like that individual, you're gonna perceive what they say more negatively than if you obviously were. So I feel like, if you like someone, you're gonna never think they really crossed the line." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's true. So you're saying I like you. That's why I'm perceiving you. You're a bullshit in a positive light. Are there people that hate you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You're perceiving me. I mean, some of the family members are disabled. Most of our students. Most of our students. People that really get to know y'all hate you. The fans love me. The friends hate me." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's a good place to be. Keep your enemies close. All right. What do you think is the most important muscle" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "for jitsu, is it biceps? No, I think a strong, I think a strong back." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think back one, core second, and then biceps. Okay, biceps. Do you legitimately think weightlifting helps jitsu? It's kind of the discussion on the steroids. It's like the muscle mass, and strength, and power," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and explosiveness, all of that. I think sometimes when we're at that upper echelon of competition, there's only, there's like little minute battles that you have to win, and if you're relatively close and technique, then a lot of times" }, { "from": "human", "value": "a stronger opponent pulls it out. But it could be also just the limitation, right? You hold position too long. What about for hobbyists? Do you recommend weightlifting?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like when you've seen people in the gym? I always recommend weightlifting. I almost see muscle as the body's armor, right? The more armor you have, the more damage you can kind of take, and maybe recovery is a little bit better. And I've always seen weightlifting as a means to stick to my routine. There's no point in lifting if you're not eating right and you're not sleeping, right? So if you kind of put it all together, then it's beneficial." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "What about you guys?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you go to the gym? I go to the gym, yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Believe it or not. Believe it or not. Believe it or not. Do you eat an elliptical and that butt machine or? Yeah, I focus on the glutes heavily. All right. What about the injury prevention and so on? How do you train to minimize the risk of injury? You guys have all been pretty beat up. You've gotten a major injury with the ACL. Yeah. So how do you train to minimize injury? Probably not the right guy to ask, hey. Definitely. Actually, can you talk through your injury?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like what happened? Yeah, so about one week prior to this last ADCC, I was wrestling with this guy named Kenta, who was also competing. And I went to go lift him from like a rear body lock. And he hooked the outside of my leg. And we just felt something pop. He felt a shift with his leg. And when it first happened, it hurt for like the first 30 seconds. And I honestly debated. I was like, maybe it was just some freak thing. I was like, I've literally thought about continuing the session. Then the next day, I woke up and it was like super sore. I was limping around, couldn't do a full squat. So it pretty much killed all of my training for the entire week leading up to the event. So I couldn't train or anything, messed up the cut. Obviously, there's added nerves with that too. You're not in the gym every day leading up to the competition. I went out there. I wasn't really able to pull guard because I couldn't get full heel to butt connection, which is inevitable with playing guard. And I was very hesitant to shoot as well. So I came out with the idea of just trying to use hand fighting to tire my first opponent out and then mainly look to get to under hooks or over hooks and do mostly upper body wrestling. In the beginning of the match, I successfully got to an under hook. I got to a rear body lock. He tried to roll and I ended up in top position in side control. But it was during the no points period. And then as the match went on, I gassed out. And eventually, he ended up taking me down and then scoring with two hooks on the back. So what's the injury? Yeah, so I got an MRI, actually, after the event." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I didn't know. I didn't know. Wait, wait." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You waited until after the event?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, I waited until after the event." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Because like knowledge or ignorance is bliss. Yeah, exactly. I was like, honestly, I don't even want to know what's wrong. I was like, I just go out there, compete. I knew it was like the biggest event to date. And I really wanted to do it. Think about not doing it? It definitely was a thought in my head, especially that the day after, it's always the worst day whenever you have like a serious injury is the day after. And I was like, man, I really can't do a full squat. I was like, I don't even know how I'm going to be able to do this. It got a bit better as the week went on. But I was like, man, I have to go out there and compete. I was like, it'll always be in the back of my mind." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Like, what if I ended up pulling out? What did you think about this whole? I thought it was just being a pussy." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. Slap him around, just yell at him. It was that then. It was that then. I didn't think we pressured you. We just say, you make your own decision, right? We're just like, yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Mine is a tricky thing to do with a heavily serious injury like this." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "We don't know. We don't know. We didn't know. That was a thing we didn't know. Honestly, initially, I thought it was, I tore my lateral meniscus. But that ended up not being the case. It ended up being a full ACL tear. I was actually super surprised when I got the MRI results." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So yeah, we didn't know how bad it actually was. What do you think about that situation?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think Nicky's a tough kid. And I mean, when you're so close to that competition, there's not many. You don't get many opportunities like that to compete in front of 15,000 people. It's like props to you for pushing through it and getting it. And man, he had a close match with one of the best grapplers in his weight class. And it's like a few adjustments here and there. And especially if he was able to train previously," }, { "from": "human", "value": "leading up to that match, I think Nicky pulls it out. So some of the things he mentioned, his nerves. So there's extra nerves just because you're under-prepared? Yeah, I mean, you know." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Feeling under-prepared. Yeah, I mean. Feeling under-prepared. You wanna go into a competition with the confidence. I did everything that I could leading up to this event. I trained as much as I could, and then when an injury prevents that," }, { "from": "human", "value": "you start to doubt yourself more. How do you guys think about injury? How do you train, you know, training with the best in the world, training to be the best in the world and avoiding injury? Because you tore your biases up?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I tore a bicep. Do it, girls, or? Dude, honestly, I was bodybuilding for like seven years, and no lie, I did, I trained biceps like most days, like almost every day in those seven years. Pretty much, I injured myself. That's so Jersey, man, that's great. Anything else, or just the biceps? Just, I mean, no. Yeah, I injured the bicep. Pretty much, the day before a wrestling practice, I had like a killer arm day, and by arm day, I just mean training biceps. Very vigorously getting a sick pump, and I go to wrestling practice the next day, pretty late, I should have been there. I didn't get a proper warmup in, and the first thing I do is I shake hands and I go to shoot a single leg, and boom, I just blew my arm out, the first movement I did. So just not being warmed up properly, in addition to having a very vigorous arm day a few hours prior. That's so Jersey, man, that's great." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Anything else, or just the biceps? You hear that about warmup? So like, what are some lessons about avoiding injury" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and training at the moment? I would say number one is warming up properly," }, { "from": "human", "value": "making sure your body's hot before you do hot stuff. Okay, and what does warmup look like for you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is it jujitsu or non-jujitsu stuff? Yeah, just for a warmup in general, I'll do something like a, if I'm talking competition, something like a jog walk back and forth a few times, then a sprint jog a few times to get that heart rate up and down, and then I'll grab a partner. I actually just filmed a DVD or an instructional, specifically on the pre-match ritual. In addition to that, I'll grab a partner, I'll drill some movements. Typically I'll drill some bad things, like I'll start from bottom out, bottom side control, workout from there, and in pretty much like 20 minutes in," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm hot and I'm ready to go for rounds. Well, what about you, Greg? So what's the weight of what injury?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's the worst injury you've had? What's the worst injury? I don't even know. I'm pretty good, pretty healthy." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Whenever you quit and practice, I'll answer mentally. Has your heart ever been broken?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Many times, many times, many times. But there's a thing I notice, people that spend the most time warming up offer the most injured. It's a strong correlation. I can't, you can't argue with science. I remember training with Oliver Tauss. Oliver Tauss would have a 60 minute warm up. Surprise, surprise, always injured. Very common. I find that very common in the training room. Now I think people, it's how they train. Like if you, like me, first sign of discomfort, backpedal, you know? Push through that stuff. Go too hard, go when you're too tired, you know what I mean? Get too emotional in the role. I feel like those are the times that I've been hurt, where I just like, oh, I can't let this guy get me. When I have that attitude and I believe it's how you train" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and sort of, obviously. So what does this come from? Like, positionally too? Like, because you're training against some killers. I mean, you're training with him and going probably pretty hard." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Once a month, once a month. If Prey gets a little tired, he's like, yeah, I'm good for today." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Once a month with Nicky, that's it, you know?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And then you quit like 30 seconds in. Just say, okay. Yeah, you know, you gotta be safe, you know?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I like it. What about you? What have you learned from the ACL? Tera, Tera." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do rehab, yeah. Yeah, rehab definitely would help." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Oh, so you haven't been like... I didn't get surgery." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I didn't get surgery. I didn't do essentially any rehab. I just have no ACL in my left leg. So what's the... Essentially any rehab. So what's it like having no... Surgery, guys, you've got two options. Surgery, rehab only. Nicky goes, I'll do nothing. Definitely should pick up on the rehab." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What's rehab for that look like? Like twice a day of doing some weird bands or something? It's good he's learned from it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "He's learned some valuable lessons from about taking care of his body. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What's it like just training with no ACL?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So at the beginning, it was definitely a little iffy. You know, I would have an occasional buckle. Like I'd just be wrestling with somebody and go to step back and it buckled backwards a bit. But honestly, now, like I haven't had a single buckle instance in a while. It feels 100% normal when I train. It feels better than my other knee, to be honest. Like I had my meniscus taken out in my right leg and that one gets sore more often than the no ACL leg. Okay, all right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So putting that aside, is there wisdom you've learned from that experience?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, definitely should be doing rehab and prehab. You know, I think that, you know, especially if you're a hobbyist or a professional athlete, you should be lifting, you know, whether you're rehabbing an injury" }, { "from": "human", "value": "or just for injury prevention. Or no. So I'm actually closer to Craig because I've trained my whole life, like pretty hard. Obviously just a hobbyist, but like twice a day, the judo wrestling, all that, never broke anything, never injured, kind of like similar philosophy, except like last year, I guess, a year and a half ago, I got a tiny like groin pull injury and it still hasn't healed. And I've been using your approach of not giving a shit. Yeah. And like, all right, surely this is going to heal. It'll be fine, but it hasn't. But of course, if I was like an actual athlete, I would like probably still train through it and just fuck it, figure it out. But when you have other stuff going on, you just kind of wait it out. Yeah. But now I think probably rehab, especially as you get older," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "you have to do that kind of stuff. Yeah. I think it's important for people to, you know, determine whether they're, what they're going through is an injury or they're just hurt a little bit. Because injury, you know, for sure take time, rehab it and get better. But a lot of people like those stubble toe or something." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Like you're out for a few weeks, you know, so. That's the problem with the injury I have. It feels like a stubbed toe. So it was like, I'll just wait a couple of days. It'll be fine. And then a couple of days later it's not fine. And you wait. And then I never got an MRI. I never got any of that. It's like, I'm sure it would be fine. Yeah. So it's hard to know sometimes, like what it's hard to know. I feel like a lot of people will just not check it all be fine because there's several failure cases. There is a failure case of where everything is a stubbed toe. You're like, fuck it. Like you're bleeding everywhere. Yeah, that's fine. Whatever. So you have to be careful. A lot of people can fall into that too. I think I'm in that category. Go to the doctor." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Why do you go to the doctor? Your best approach is typically wait until something else gets hurt so that you'll forget" }, { "from": "human", "value": "about the grain. Yeah, exactly. That's all I was hoping. I was hoping to get hurt. I was waiting for the broken heart maybe. Okay. That was very helpful. Oh, you mentioned you're doing a whole thing on the pre-match ritual." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Can you preview what's involved in your pre-match ritual? It's pretty big in the wrestling culture and the fighting culture, like what to do before your competition. But I think a few people are just missing out exactly what to do. So I break it down for them. I break it down to people like four weeks in advance, how you should prep your trading and your nutrition and your sleep for competition. In addition to that, I break it down even to a smaller scale of how early you should get to the event, when you should be visualizing your competition, what to do 30 minutes before, 20 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes. And the kind of mentality you should have throughout those times before you actually" }, { "from": "human", "value": "step onto the mat. When are you visualizing how much you're visualizing the actual? When you say competition, you talking about the tournament or the actual people you might" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "be competing against? A little bit of both. I'll spend time just visualizing the crowd. If it's gonna be an arena with 15,000 people, I'll spend time in practice, and putting myself inside that arena and visualizing stepping on the mat and hearing the crowd scream and that way. when competition time comes, it's kind of the same deal. I'm accustomed to it. In addition, when I get to the arena, I'll step on the mat. I'll kind of look at everything. I'll expose my senses to what it's going to be, and then I'll kind of shut everything off. Some people scroll through their phone and can treat it like normal, have this normal conversations. For me, I like to limit my sensory intake before I go out and compete. I just feel like sometimes we only have so many decisions. You can make it a day. And I want all of my best decisions" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to be made when it counts. What about you? Do you limit your sensory input?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "On game day, honestly, no routine. Nothing, eh? I don't know. Yeah, I don't do anything. I'm just like- This guy's a double silver. We're both double silver. We should get it. You should buy as a structural. I help you. I help you. I'll get another silver. No, honestly, nothing. Hey, I just try to relax, treat it like it's before training." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Have a good- Is that visualizations, or no? No, it's not no visualization. So the opposite of visualization? You just avoid it?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, no, it's not no visualization. So the edit bought it? Yeah, I don't even think about it. I'm just like, eh, we'll have a good time." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You know, try to appreciate it, but I can do it. By the way, when you visualize, are you visualizing tough positions" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or you visualizer winning mostly? I definitely visualize winning. I visualize how I can get to- how I'm going to get to my most dominant positions because, you know, in comp, I want to do what I'm best at. And I'm also see- I see my opponent in his best positions and how I'm gonna escape those if necessary, but most of the time I'm just visualizing exactly what I'm gonna do in that match," }, { "from": "human", "value": "and I go out there and do it. Okay, so when your teammate, Craig, is another world-class athlete, has a fundamentally different philosophy than you, do you visualize being frustrated at him?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, not frustrated, but I'll definitely come into practice with solutions to problems that Craig gives me. You know, like if Craig's catching me at something and giving me issues, like I'll go home, I'll watch a match that he lost for motivation, and I'll come back and I'll put it on." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Just DM him like a highlight reel of him losing. Yup. What about you, like does it affect you" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you're a bit of an outlier? Usually before I compete, right before I go out there, I go, why am I doing this? Do I still need to do this? And I think, fuck, hopefully it doesn't embarrass myself, it affects my instructional sales. That's the last thought. But I don't even put too much thought into the whole competing thing. I'm just like, you know what, train hard, hopefully have a good time out of it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What about the motivation aspect? Like that voice that says, like, why am I doing this? That voice can break a lot of people. Like, in the weight cut, it can break a lot of people. Like, why am I doing this stupid silly sport, like you said? A bunch of dudes just rolling around," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "like what's the point? I'll cool someone with a nine-to-five job, and I'll be like, yeah, that's why I'm doing this. You know, avoid that. Yeah, for sure. I saw those DVDs, man. Yeah, I didn't get too deep on competing. We're so polar opposite, it's like almost uncomfortable to be around you. Obviously, one of us is a clean athlete. Hold on. You should do a DVD on that." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "What about you in terms of preparing for competition, Mickey, the day before, the day of," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "are there rituals that you follow? Honestly, like the few days leading up to it, it's different for me every time. Like, sometimes I'll warm up before I compete, sometimes I won't, sometimes I'll fast, sometimes I'll eat. So it literally is just completely random. I don't follow any specific thing. But in the training room leading up to the competition, I'll definitely, you know, like Nikki Rod, visualize that I'm walking out onto the competition mats. You know, I'll pick somebody that's, you know, similar body type to the person that I'm competing against. And then, you know, we'll start out with some distance between us, we'll come out, smack hands, and you know, act like everything's a real competition. I'll even sometimes have, you know, corners that will yell out times and things like that just to replicate it as much as possible." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's funny, because I've talked to a lot of Olympic gold medalists, they used to do a podcast with like athletes, and they all sound like Nikki Rod. The two of you are outliers." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I don't know, sometimes I'll do this. Sometimes, anyway." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But that's also Jigizo culture, I think. Maybe the chaos of not taking things too serious is actually really, really helpful. Sometimes, the pressure of taking everything way too seriously can break you. I mean, it's just I don't think it's the biggest swap really." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You know, I think if I compete every day in practice, it just makes competition much easier. So I just put the pressure on there" }, { "from": "human", "value": "on the competition area, sorry on the training, on competing in the training. And that becomes really fun. I don't know, Olympic sports aren't that big either, financially. And people take it extremely, extremely seriously." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like you don't really get that much money from Judo. I mean, I just don't take Jiu-Jitsu that seriously because like I was just partying, having a good time until 21. And then I was like, oh fuck, do I get a job? Although I pursue professional sports. And I feel like if I can make a career in Jiu-Jitsu with a decision at that point." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And now you just stumbled your way somehow into like" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "being at the top of the world. Yeah, that's what I feel like. I just walked into it. I feel like I couldn't just do that in wrestling, boxing." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I couldn't do that in other sports. What was the toughest match you ever had that pushed you mentally, physically, technically? This doesn't have to be the best person you faced, but was there like a moment in your career" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that was like really defining for you? I mean, I would say like the toughest mentally was just this last ADCC. I just had a big injury leading into it that kind of screwed the whole camp and weight cutting everything up." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So yeah, I would say the last ADCC. Are you proud of your performance there?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like you stepped on the mat that you pushed through all of it. Like I said, I'm a very competitive person and I hate losing. So definitely not, yeah. You had a collapsed lung. I actually. Oh, man, dude, man, dude. He was so physically exhausted afterwards, couldn't breathe. We had to get medical intervention. He thought he had a collapsed lung. He had a collapsed lung. So once I was the most tired that I've ever been in my life in that match, I actually popped a blood vessel in my eye. I was trying so hard. He comes out, he walks off of the ADCC mat backstage and I'm like, I'm kind of getting warmed up for my match and Nicky run and come. He walks over a huffing and puffing. His mom's right next to me, he looks at her. He was like, I think I need help. I think I was a lung collapse. Collapse. That's not true. Dude, no, that's not true. My mom's the one that called for medical help. I was just laying on the warmup mat, fucking dying. I was just dying. Well, we're happy you're fine. Yeah. Well, we're happy you're fine. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Laid it all on the line." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What about you, Craig? Defining all toughest matches? I mean, they're all pretty tough, you know? I don't know. I can't really pinpoint one. I mean, probably the most annoying one was obviously the one where I had Gordon Amba. I was like, tap, bro. And he wouldn't tap. So I let him out." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Mentally, I was like, I shouldn't have done that. Do you ever have a thing in your brain where it says, should I shit talk now or not? And you say, no, I'm going to be respectful." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I just can't be serious about some of these things. I don't know." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's just silly. Yeah, all of it, the whole thing." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What about you, Nicky? Dude, honestly, most of my toughest matches are in the training room, right? Because I started with these guys. I started training under them. I started training at DDS when I didn't have any knowledge. I knew wrestling. I knew a knee cut in jiu-jitsu. But I started training with them when I knew almost no jiu-jitsu. And then I had to really work my way up. So definitely in the training room, having one of these guys on my back, or there was a stretch of a few weeks or months when COVID first hit. And there was just four of the best gravelers in the world. And we just did drilling in live rounds with these four guys. And it was hard. It was very hard. Every round, doing six rounds, seven days a week with the best gravelers in the world. And it's like you get no break. And you're forced to learn on the go. So I think for me in the training room, that was definitely my toughest matches. And that's where I built those mental calluses. There was a period where I drilled with Nicky Ride probably, what, nine months, 12 months? And typically speaking, like I said, no warm ups. The first round, we should take it pretty easy. First round, you start in the mound. The whole room, the rest of the training room, they take mount very lightly. Me and Nicky Ride would be fighting to the death every day. I felt like we did an extra round every day. It was very grueling. I'm very mean when I'm in the midst of drilling or live. We would drill wrestling quite a bit, stand up. And in the drilling, I just wouldn't like Craig taking me down. Like we're not going live. We're just drilling. But I just wouldn't let him put me on the floor." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Things like that, you know? I know what escalate. Yeah. So you mentioned mount, so you do positional training. So would that be the hardest versus live training" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "open starting from guard? I would say mount and turtle definitely, definitely made me very tough. Because you spent all this effort getting off of bottom mount. And then you got to get on top of a guy. And at the time, I'm not that good at holding guys down. So they escape quick. And I'm like, fuck, I just tried to hold them down. Got to go back down. Same thing with a turtle. It's like you start bottom turtle. You're trying to explode, get away. And then you switch. And this guy gets up pretty quick. And you're like, damn, I got to go right back down. It was that constant circle, man. It's very tough." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But definitely build some character on the mat. What do you think is the value of positional training in general in jiu-jitsu? Actually, this one just interacting with you guys, it's not commonly done in just regular jiu-jitsu gyms. What do you see? Because probably it's not commonly done because most of the experience is just frustrating. Like, if you're evenly matched, you're" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "basically frustrated the whole time if you're doing it right. It's a psychological battle that happens in the mountain turnarounds. Because maybe you get close to subbing a guy. Or maybe you do sub him. When you start on turtle and you're on their back, you finish them. And then you get this high point. And then immediately, you got to go back down to defensive posture. And it's emotionally up and down. So it's hard to deal with. Super important if you're one of the better people in the gym. Because it just puts you in positions you don't find yourself in, in regular training. So I think if you're a big fish in a small pond or you don't do positional sparring, you're probably going to get exposed in competition. You might even look silly in those positions. So you really have to force yourself to do it. Despite the fact that you're giving someone worse than you, a position where they might catch you. So you have to put the ego aside." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, that's one of the things when I was training regularly. Of course, training with you guys, it's trivial. But I didn't work on putting myself in bad positions when you get better and you regret it. The big negative thing it has, consequence it has on competition is you don't take as many risks because you're kind of afraid for your back" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to get taken, all that kind of stuff. That was me before I went to DDS. I remember I showed up there in that old position. I was like, fuck this. You better earn this position. I didn't really have escapes. I was learning this. You better earn this position. Yeah, exactly." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I didn't care for me for sure. Do you see the value in positional training" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or is it just the source of tremendous frustration? Yeah, I definitely think it plays a big part in your confidence when you step out onto the competition, Matt, being confident that even if you get put in the worst possible situations," }, { "from": "human", "value": "you know what to do and know how to work out of them. I had a long argument with Roger Gracie when he visited and he thinks Mel is the most dominant position, and even Noghi versus Beck. Is there a case to be made for that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think all of your opponent's utensils, their tools, are in front of them. So, if you're on a mount, there's a few ways to get out a mount. I think if you're on somebody's back, I'd personally much rather be on somebody's back, than- Flattened out. I'd rather have someone's back and then flattened out. Boots in and flattened out." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Boots in, flattened out, yeah, yeah. Boots in, flattened out." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "not even body triangle, but just flattened. Just completely flat. Almost like the position in my Mayweather, you see guys get finished because they can't get out. I think that position is probably" }, { "from": "human", "value": "the hardest position to escape. Can you see what Hager's talking about with Mount? Or is he just that good at Mount? Like he says that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "He might mean the gi, cross collar, you know? I don't know." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Or did he mean no gi? He says controlling-wise, he just believes that you can complete, that there's, he actually thinks there's more ways to get out from the back than there is from the Mount." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Prior to- Getting up, including like physically. Prior to the keeping escape, I would probably agree with him. But that keeping escape is so difficult to manage. It's the funny looking escape where your legs are wiggling. People have a lot of trouble. It's like super hard to learn how to do, but then once you learn how to do it," }, { "from": "human", "value": "the effectiveness is just huge. Yeah, it's a weird one. When did that come to be a thing?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That pretty recent?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, I saw DDS guys using it first, I think. Yeah. Who was the first guy to discover something like that? This seems like a ridiculous thing to discover. He said like what if I just wiggle?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, not. He said like what if I just wiggle? I thought it was a joke at first, I was like, you guys really doing this? Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "All right. I remember someone showing me like a technique where like if you just like walk your hand on a mat" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or something like that." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Maybe on an armor triangle or something? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just walked the arm. And it's just like a funny discovery. Like as opposed to like trying to shove it in," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "just like walk it. I like doing that to people, but with things that aren't true. You know what I mean? I'll just tell them this is a technique" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "and watch him try to work out if I'm being serious or not. Yeah, that's what you do when you achieve guru status. They'll just listen to you like you're Steven Seagal. See what they'll believe. Speaking of which, how do you balance, you have to travel all across the world. How do you balance that with running a school," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with being a world-class jujitsu athlete? I mean, the secrets of travel for me are two drugs, Xanax and Modafinil. That's how we time adjust and we hit the ground running. What does Modafinil do? Xanax puts you to sleep. Yeah, I mean, I have narcolepsy, so it's a narcolepsy medication, but." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Xanax puts you to sleep." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How does that work with the steroids? How does that work with the steroids? I mean, they work well together, you know? Yeah, nice. Focus and physical recovery. But in terms of traveling and training and stuff, I mean, we're lucky because we got so many high-level guys, so we can travel and they're still in good hands. I mean, it would be a problem if me, Nikki Rodd and Nikki Ryan left, and the gym had Ethan, that would be a problem. But we've got to make sure it's not just him now." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Although everyone says they're happy when you're gone," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "so that's the moment I heard. Happy when I'm gone, but they do miss me, for sure, until I get back." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, all right. What about you, just like balancing, do you try to stay completely focused on competing, like for some of the big matches you have coming up," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or are you able to kind of diversify? Well, I like to, yeah, diversify my training to where, you know, if I don't have a competition scheduled, I'm more focused on skill development and, you know, getting better and broadening my tool shed. But, you know, if I'm like six weeks before comp, I really start amping up the intensity that I bring into the mats against bringing some of that visualization towards practice. And maybe I train less volume pre-competition," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but higher output per session. Yeah, what's a perfect week of training look like?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "If I'm not in competition mode, I would say Monday, Wednesday, Friday, twice, every other day, just once." }, { "from": "human", "value": "If I'm pre-comp, just Monday to Sunday, once a day. So that's on the mat. You're doing the full, like, positional training," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "live training. Bicep curls. Oh, yeah, I do a lot of bicep curls. Yeah, I lift a few times a week now. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, cardio. Yeah, yeah. Cardio or no?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Cardio's all in that stuff. Cardio's all in that stuff. I do do some CrossFit workouts, like CrossFits." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'll do, like, some EMOMs or some AMRABS or CrossFit terms." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's for Instagram? Yeah. But, yeah, CrossFit is a good way to kind of, like, push that threshold, sometimes on the mat, because I'm so good, I can't always get that, like, full red line, so I'll hop in a CrossFit gym and I'll do some workouts that, you know," }, { "from": "human", "value": "bring me closer to death. What about you, Craig? What does a perfect week in training look like?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like, when you're back home training? I try to be at the gym twice a day, every day, when I'm back, just because I travel a bit more than these guys, so I try to be there, eight and 12 every day, hang out in between. Usually, definitely, usually train both of those sessions," }, { "from": "human", "value": "depending on how my body feels. You're doing positional," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "doing everything technique, positional, live. I should probably do more positional, but because I'm just trying to work on wrestling and stuff, and especially leading up to the Volcanoski's Last Fire, I was trying to wrestle more and focus on those areas, even before I traveled over there, just some experimentation with some stuff." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But, yeah. How do you experiment with stuff? Like, how do you, so there's, like, regular positional stuff, but when you have ideas, like, where do you do it during the training sessions? Do you do it outside of that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you get together with somebody? Usually, every session I show up with something I'm thinking of. Usually, something from top, maybe something from bottom, but, and then I just try to maybe pick the right people. Some people, obviously, I'm just fighting to the death with. It's not a good time to experiment, and then others, obviously," }, { "from": "human", "value": "you can play around with ideas on. Okay, what about you? What's a perfect week look like?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Maybe, well, you said you're 100% now. Yeah, so yeah, honestly, I have pretty much the same schedule as Nikki Rods, so Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I do twice a day, every other day, once a day. And then, normally, noon practice is like our biggest class. That's where, you know, all the pros go in, so I tend to do more open rounds there, and then we have a 7 p.m. class as well, which is more hobbyist, and that's where I'll do my positional rounds" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and, you know, force myself to be put in bad positions. So you have, what, you do 8 a.m., 12, like, in terms of what B-Team has, 8 a.m., 12, 7 p.m., and the hobbyists are more 7 p.m.? Yes. Okay. Do you believe in over-training?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you think you can over-train? I used to not believe in it, but then I got hurt." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I was like, all right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Oh, you attribute that to over-training? The bicep? I think, dude, I'm telling you, I trained, I lifted like a bodybuilder for like seven years, and by lifting on me, I was lifting seven days a week, and I trained arms most days, like, almost every day I would do, like, you know, four or five sets and get a pretty good bicep pump, In addition to my lift, I think I had to contribute somewhat towards my-" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "What about my entry? What about my entry? Fair enough. Well, what about on the actual mat over training? Like, explaining too much time on the mat." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, psychological, physical over training. I think you can definitely over train, but it's more of a, like, as your body's healthy, you have to make sure your mind is sharp. Like, sometimes maybe taking a day away, or even diverting your attention in a different aspect of training can help you be a little bit sharper overall. Sometimes it can be like a, it can get a little, like, stagnant because you're doing the same stuff over and over. But I think if you just keep, like, you know, over training, then your overall baseline just gets higher" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and you become, you know, accustomed to that. What about you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You don't seem like a guy that over, okay. I've heard of it. Never been close to it. Now, I think controlling how hard you train is definitely, protects you from injury. You know what I mean? If you're redlining yourself and then you're fighting to the death in the gym, that's 100% when you're gonna get injured, gonna get sick. So I try to make sure I've had enough sleep. I've had, obviously, enough food post-training and that sort of helps me to train a bit harder, but still try to avoid redlining myself too much. I think established also, like, what days are gonna be your peak days? Cause you're, you throughout the week, if you're training seven days a week, you're gonna have ups and downs. Like, for me personally, when they, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, usually my best days. And besides that, I also have other great days. All my days are great. But Monday, Wednesday, Friday are also great. You're like, I'm capable to admit that some days are rougher than others. I love it. I'm always on, bro. Okay." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm capable to admit, what advice would you give to people who are not always on hobbyists? How to get better? Like people that are already there, I don't know, purple bells, brown bells, black bells. They're just like doing like a couple times a week or something like that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like how do you get better? I think being consistent, like find a schedule that you can consistently train. Maybe it's like, you know, three, four times a week or even a little bit less. Just be consistent over the years. I mean, too, too often, people are like, oh, I want to get really good, really fast. And it's like, definitely takes a long time" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to get to where you want. What about, you know, what you're doing during, like, while being consistent?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What kind of stuff are you working on? So honestly, I think one big thing for me, which is something I actually started doing once B Team was formed, was filming all of your rounds and then watching it every day. Because you can see what specific problems you're having and then you can base your positional rounds" }, { "from": "human", "value": "around those problems. That's really interesting. It's kind of depressing though. Yeah. Like sometimes I have to, you know, I edited this podcast for a long time. I still do in part and I hate the sound of my voice and like what I look like, it's tough. But it does make you better. Yep. And I also hate the sound of Craig's voice and like what he looks like so," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "editing this podcast is what he especially and what he looks like so editing this podcast" }, { "from": "human", "value": "is what he especially, this will be doubly difficult. But I'm glad, glad the rest of you are here, I don't know. That's just arisen. Do you watch competition footage of yourself or no? Like do I analyze like Oh yeah. Yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's my confidence, thats fucking good. That's reassclirus. Yeah. It's my confidence. That's fucking good. While you're doing curls. Yeah. I'm trying not to. Yeah. I'm trying not to watch it because it's my confidence." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Is there advice you, Kerg, you would give for hobbyists to get better?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, just not every round has to be a fight to the death. You know? I feel like you're going to get injured. But it's out of that way." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You're not going to learn as much. It's tough, I would say, just as a black belt who took Jesus very seriously for a very long time. Basically, when you become a hobbyist, your skill is basically slipping. Your age and your skill. And so, not taking stuff seriously is actually its own psychological skill of like... That... It's tough. It's tough. Like, it's tough in a way that is different when you're like a blue belt or something. That if you work hard and you train correctly, you're going to get much better. Here, you're kind of... You're looking downhill. You're looking downhill. And you're like..." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, I guess I'm going to enjoy the art of it. Reframe the victory. You know? Like, if it's a young upcoming guy and he consummated, you're like, well, that's a moral victory." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You know? Yeah, but then that has to happen. You have to be able to not do that to avoid injury sometimes. Like, if you want. So, yeah, it's a different thing. Plus, with me, just... Because some people recognize me, they... They're coming. You have that, probably. You guys definitely, obviously, have that. I've solved that problem." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "How did you solve that problem? Travel around. You do a seminar, anything like that. Yeah, yeah. It's believable that you could get submitted once. But if they catch you, give them a few. If people tell their friends they submitted me to seminar, one time, believable. They got me four or five times. Four times, yeah." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "You've robbed them of that. Ten times, yeah. Okay, that's pretty funny. But it's also... They have this energy. Like, they think, you know, they're coming in hot. I usually like to just basically get submitted quickly, twice. And just, it changes everything. It makes it more fun. I've noticed it. Let them submit you twice? Yeah. Just, like, very quickly. Like, what are the options? We're not..." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I've noticed it. Let them submit you twice? Yeah. We're not... They can last longer. Hold off. They can last longer." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But then it's like, it's very hard to, like, yeah, if you're a very serious competitor, and so on, you take it seriously, then yes. But, like, then people go... People, what they try to do, this is probably what happens to you guys, they try to impress you by going super hard." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I have people every day come to my gym, try to take me out. Yeah. I just stay sharp. Come to practice. Let's get it on." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Do you feel that energy?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I feel like I need to talk to Craig here for a second." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Like, at a seminar. Like, somebody is coming in, like, really hard. Like, a brown belt will come in, like, and they really want to impress you with, like, their technical side of their big fan. They've been watching your DVDs." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like, what do you do with a guy like that? I make a complete joke out of the row. You know, give them the pass, mess with them, do stupid shit, you know? Like, rub them of the realness of it. Because it's stupid. I'm not going to roll hard with strangers, you know? I feel like you should roll with a circle of people you trust. Injuries happen rolling hard with strangers because that's the same way you get injured in competition" }, { "from": "human", "value": "because you don't have that relationship with them. And I should also mention, that's probably not a good way to impress somebody's big, just going ape shit, going 100%. Oh, yeah. That's not at all. I think the beauty of Jiu Jitsu is, like, the camaraderie of it. Like, as you get to know each other, there's, like, technical, like, different ideas you have and all that. Yeah. Okay. Do you think Gijitsu is dying in popularity, Craig?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, it's long dead. I think it's just, I mean, it just shows, like, I mean, I have heard some numbers on the viewership for the Ghee Worlds Finals, and they don't even compare to the undercard of, like, who's number one events. So I think, like, when I was coming up and competing in the Ghee all the time, you looked at those guys that won Black Belt World Championships, and you were like in awe of them. It almost had that ADCC champion feel, but now that's not the case. You know, I just feel like that. The younger generation aren't looking at who's winning Black Belt Ghee Worlds. I personally don't think and I don't think they're, like, they want to be that guy." }, { "from": "human", "value": "They want to be like a Retolo, Gordon, you know, those are the people they want to emulate. So you think like the Gi, like, IPJJF Gi tournaments will just keep declining popularity?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Oh, I think people will still do it. I mean, it's easier, I think, as you're over 30 because the Gi is a bit of a slower thing and the Masters participation is bigger in the Gi, because obviously you know Gi is now hitting in a wrestling direction. Wrestling and heel hooks, you're over 30, that's a terrifying prospect, you know? What's terrifying about the Gi? Less. So I think in a participation rate, the obvious Jeff will still be good, but I just don't think people are as interested as they used to be." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Why is wrestling and heel hooks terrifying? Like heel hooks I can vaguely understand if you don't understand heel hooks." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "If you work a desk job and you've never wrestled and a guy double legs you, that's going to probably break your back, you know? I think the older guys are scared of wrestling. It's hard to wrestle at 40. To learn wrestling at 40. Yeah, I mean, I think it's even just hard in general to do wrestling at 40, but it's easier to pull half guy's in the game" }, { "from": "human", "value": "40. I think it's hard to do judo at 40. People still do it at 40. Judo hurts more. Judo's scarier than all of them. Yeah. I think, does wrestling really hurt 40? I don't know why I'm looking at you." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It does, interesting, I mean. I feel like Judo's scarier. I don't know why I'm looking at you. It does. I feel, I agree with what you were saying that Judo looks like the most dangerous. Like even their practice partners, they're just getting..." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Slammed flat what oh, yeah, I did. I mean I did judo for a really long time There's a lot of people that are 40 50 60 do judo and they get they're the ones that are still alive though. It's true Survivor bias you do a little bit of judo, right me. I'm a yellow belt. You're a yellow bone judo. I should be an instructor" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Promote you to orange. I got a yellow belt in the sixth grade. I believe was the sixth grade" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I did it for about I don't know six months, but you're also using Uh judo in competition basically, all right, aren't you doing like a ride type throw like you're doing uh, You know, I just started doing it you started lifting your leg in various ways until work just figuring it out" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, yeah do different kinds of trips. I will to the same. I don't know why I thought I just started doing it" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I was like, I can't be that hot. Yeah, gave me the crack. Yeah Well, they looked at your footlocks and they said they came in at hard" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They say it can't be that hard, ban it from the tournaments. All right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What do you think is the best takedown in Nogi, Jijutsu? Like what, like if people were trying to train for competition and so on, like where do you see the trends heading?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think the foot sweep is like catching the fire nowadays. See a lot of foot sweeps, foot sweeps and arm drags, I would say pretty popular in our sport." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Arm drag." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Arm drag either to get to behind them or even just to cause reactions, make them pull away and we can start reattacking. Are you talking about it in a context of what's the best takedown to score? What's the safest takedown to mitigate the risk of guillotine submission" }, { "from": "human", "value": "or most effective in general? Yeah, most effective combined, combined. Yeah, yeah." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I mean, I think any sort of body lock, you know what I mean? Locking your hands around the body, you've been able to put them to the floor that way. I feel like that's most effective, safest, might even have arisen out of a leg attack, leg entry, upgrade to the body." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What about like foot sweeps outside foot sweeps?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I would say yeah, you know, foot sweeps from outside foot sweeps or even like something like you're tossing a point by and you're sweeping the foot." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, those are all pretty safe. See, why is that scary? I don't understand. It's not scary at all." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think it's the lifts that are scary." }, { "from": "human", "value": "The lifts, yeah. Who's lifting, people? I feel like it was a good lift. Return?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, not you. I mean, a master, like we're talking about older guys doing no... I feel like it was a good lift. Some of those old bosses take it very serious, you know? They just start lifting. TRT Worlds. TRT Worlds. They're coming. They're coming to impress." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Grab a lift. All right. All right. Just for the gram. Okay. What about submission? What's your favorite submission? And what do you think is the most effective submission? Except the buggy choke." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I would have to say the rear naked. It's definitely the one that's hit the most in the highest level of competition." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That was pretty interesting to see you escape all that and to put it on. That's the cool thing about EBI, to see like the world-class athletes. I was surprised that it's possible to escape with you on his back. Gotta try some beet cream. Oh, yeah. Beet cream? Yeah, that helps. What's the formula or is that a secret? That is a proprietary blend for sure. Okay. But that's what you use for greasing. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Does these other applications outside of grappling? I'm sure you can get creative. All right. Thanks. Asking for a friend." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is that RNC for you as well? Oh, yeah. Beet cream? Allegedly. Allegedly. I mean, overall favorite for solidifying a finish because you can put somebody to sleep. Even if they don't want to attack, put them to sleep. But as far as something I've been working on now that I'm now starting to implement in competition, Yoko Senkaku's side triangle is a beautiful thing. You have multiple options. You have the triangle to finish. If that fails, you have the komori. You could break the arm. You could also just transfer and take the back." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So Yoko Senkaku, I'm a big fan of and I continue to progress and get better at it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Have you ever broken anyone's arm? Oh, yeah. I mean, the first first few competitions because I was like, you know, pretty athletic grappler or athletic wrestler going against like local black belts and brown belts like one of my first matches. I broke somebody a komora pretty much every time I've got a heel hook, which is only twice I've broken an opponent. If I have a joint lock, it's probably going to break like a lot of times it breaks before they tap." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. Yeah. You seem like a really friendly fellow. How far is it to break an arm or a break a joint?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, I don't think it's that hard. I think like if you're talking about an arm bar, we have this position to where like people kind of holding on holding on and then it slips and their arm starts going. And then it just just breaks before they even get a chance to tap. I love this point. I knew about a guy and he didn't tap one time and it was actually it was surprising. I had to put a lot of force into that. I suppose arm, shoulders, and the ligaments in the knees and ankles, but to a fully this" }, { "from": "human", "value": "kid Sambo kid, fully let it go and he tapped and I think the angle is like up here. They're built different." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Hopefully he can be reconstructed. He's rebuilt different. Yeah. He's rebuilt different. Yeah. All right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What about a straight foot lock? You've ever, do you guys do straight foot locks at all?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Uh, yeah. I mean, I'm learning them now. We had some kid come, come into practice one day and like straight foot lock, straight foot lock, just this little like Polish kid, straight foot lock everyone, but he told the inside world, we probably put a hit out on a good practice and he just comes everybody. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So it was interesting when you get like, yeah, people that specialize can surprise you that this could be effective stuff. Uh, do you think there's other stuff that could be still discovered in jiu-jitsu? Like what, what areas do you think are ripe with techniques to discover? Like wrestling is really interesting." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Now there's a lot of innovation happening in wrestling. I think there'll be more innovation when, uh, we get people that are more adamant about standing up from bottom position. I think if we get more of the community, they're like, all right, I want to get off the bottom. I think just stand up. Just stand up. How'd you just, it doesn't work. We actually changed the name. How Sambo doesn't work. If you just stand up. Did you really? All right. Did you really?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "All right. I'll change it to jiu-jitsu when I pirate it and send it for free to the entirety of the Soviet block. Hey, Nicky Rod, do you think ego is useful for martial arts?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Or does it get in the way? What do I need in the way? Okay, I think you need to use it, uh, in both ways, um, for sure. Have an ego. Like if you're, if you're training competition, um, but also it can prevent you from learning and progressing. If your ego is too high, like you really have to shut the ego down when you're in the mode of learning and trying to, you know, develop skills, because you're going to put yourself in these bad positions. You're going to have issues with, uh, training partners that aren't necessarily, you know, up to, up to your skill level. But because you're in these bad positions, you have to make these certain sacrifices. And for sure, ego can be a good or bad thing. But if you're able to shut the ego off and learn, then that'll have huge progression" }, { "from": "human", "value": "when it's time to put the ego on into use during competition. When's the last time you put, uh, shut the ego off? It's been a long time." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's been a long time." }, { "from": "human", "value": "What about you Craig? Do you, uh, do you, I mean, you seem to be super easy going." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is there, like, is the ego just not part of it? Oh, for sure. I just don't want anyone to know they've damaged my ego, you know, you have to suppress it" }, { "from": "human", "value": "deep down." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "There's a child underneath all of it crying always. For sure. I think ego is good for a bit of perseverance, you know, like it will help you stick it out against a tough battle with a training partner for sure. A bit of egos on the line. Plus the bands are back and forth. We're trying to like stir each other up a bit." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think that helps hone sharpen the ego a bit. What about you? You tried, you seem like a super humble guy. Is there like a monster underneath? It's a total act. It's an act." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's a total act. It's an act. I think ego's a big motivator. I think it's very good to have in the aspect that it like, it'll drive you to help to want to be one of the best in the world. But like Nikki Rod said, you need to be able to turn it off in the training room and, you" }, { "from": "human", "value": "know, force yourself into bad positions where you may not be winning. Are there like, you know, Donna Hearst mentioned Boris, are there like grapplers, like Boris, this is a question from Reddit, actually, Boris like characters, anybody you've trained with in the past who doesn't compete, but it's just an absolute beast in training." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Like people you've met that are just like, well, somebody that I think has a pride, the best like submission grappling in, in MMA, I think like Gilbert Burns is a, is a his submission grappling. I mean, it's very, very good. I trained with him early, early on in my grappling career. And I was really impressed by his ability to move, hold down opponents that are trying to stand up. And as a whole, you know, he can, he can get submissions and put people away. Have you, when's the last time, have you trained them recently or no? No, it's been a few years, which is impressive, uh, ability to submit, you're saying. Yeah. Like, I mean, you know, you would see, I'd see Gilbert go against a few like pretty decent black belts in the room and farewell, and you know, maybe he gets to their back, puts a choke in and it's like Gilbert's super high level, uh, grappling or submission grappling." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. But he's pretty widely recognized as a, as a monster. So I don't know. You didn't really answer the question. It's like, you're not even listening anymore. I don't even remember." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You didn't really answer that. I don't even remember. What was the question? All right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Uh, what, uh, is there, is there people like you've done all these seminars or they're just, especially in, in the, in the Eastern block, you've seen like you went to Kazakhstan." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is there killers out there that you've seen like you want to, yeah, there's tough guys out there. Obviously I don't remember the names. Nor could I pronounce it if I did, but definitely some tough guys out there, obviously carrying skill sets over from, from wrestling for sure." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Not Sambo, but wrestling, but yeah, just people that surprised you to just don't compete that are really good." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Are there, have you met those? I feel like it's less so today because there's so many, so many more athletes in the sport, but definitely when I was coming up back, like in Australia and stuff, there were guys" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'd train with that wouldn't compete and that would be like super tough rounds for me. Yeah. And there's so many more avenues for competing in general. So yeah. Um, what about you?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Have you met some monsters? Yeah. One guy I could think of in particular is Jason Rao. He's a, he trains up in Long Island, I think, right? Uh, opened up his own gym out there. Vanguard. Yeah. Vanguard. He used to compete, but he would never be able to compete at the same level he would train at. So now he's just focused on mainly, you know, opening up a gym and teaching his students. Uh, but he was a guy that was, you know, extremely good in the training room, you know, world class. I still think to this day, he's, he's legitimately one of the best in the world, uh, but just" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "doesn't compete anymore. Who wins in a fight, a lion or a bear? Politbeth? This is for you, Reddit. Well, well, yes. It's a good question. See, you're all, you know, the polar bear is pretty impressive. No grizzly bear." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Grizzly bear." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think a grizzly bear wins. Well, who was the most threatening predator in Australia?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Whoa. I mean, it's a tricky question here because everyone's scared of the animals in Australia, but I mean, you've been by snake, you've been by spider. That's not that bad. Bear, America, bear would just hold you down and eat you. That's a much more terrifying prospect for me. Even sharks. Sharks going to be quick. No one sees the shark coming. The shark's just going to bite you in half. I've seen" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Bear will tick bite and chew." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "A bear just holds you down and eats you. So that's frightening for me." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Australia's a bunch of just weird shit that can kill you. Did you see Cocaine Bear, the movie that's coming out? I saw the trailer. It looks good. Yeah. So there's not every bear, there's like black belts, and there's black belts. There's bears, and there's bears. So I think that's what they often don't talk about. Everybody puts lions and bears in the same category. I think there's just some weak bears. A lion would kill a black bear, I think. Not every black. I'm trying to tell you, there's different. Like Grizzly and Polobown betting on those. Yeah. No, I think Grizzlies have the size, but actually every video I've seen of Grizzlies, they tie out within like 20 seconds." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They get bored. That's the gas tank? Yeah, the gas tank. That's the Nikki Ryan gas tank right there. Yeah. That's all they got. Dream old." }, { "from": "human", "value": "They try to just take a breather. Like there's these crazy fights between bears and they last like 20 seconds." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I heard this story about a Russian family was attacked by bear in Russia and killed their dad. And it took so long to meet their daughter, she made three phone calls to a mom while I was eating her. And the first called, the moment she was pranking her. That's crazy. That's way scarier than what we thought man- Yeah, that's terrifying. Give me a snake bite any day." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, that's terrifying. Give me a snake bite any day. Yeah. Let me change the question. Is like if you had to fight a bear or a lion? how would you try to defeat it?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you think you have a chance at all? Well, I think I'd attack a lion a little bit differently if I had to attack a bear. What would be the difference? Okay, well, I've seen this video where a lion's are eating and you have three like skinny guys walk up behind them and kind of scare the cat off of their food. I think maybe I produce some props, scare the lion away, right? But if I have to fight it, I have to fight it straight on. I mean, the thing is that even if you take the back, like you can't like bite it or choke it, the mane is too big to lock your hands around, you know? Are you sure about that? No, the mane is just hair. Yeah, the mane is just hair, it's like matted hair, right? I don't know. So, I'm there. Do you think you can make a chicken's back and draw a lion? Maintain, yeah, yeah. But getting there, I think I fake how I go low, right? Make them think I'm going for the foot or something," }, { "from": "human", "value": "a little paw sweep, and I take the back. What about a bear? I feel like they're easier, that might be easier to take to hold back control." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, maybe the thing is if the bear falls on its back, it's just gonna crush it so big. Substantially bigger than a lion, right? Like a full-grown person." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And they're also terrifyingly like loud" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with their roars and stuff. Yeah, I think, so first of all, if I saw Grizzly, I'm like, all right, he's gonna attack me. I try to yell a little bit louder than them, maybe their term a little bit, like give them a, oh, no. And then, yeah, for sure, I try to get behind it. I probably go like something weird, maybe like pull the eyes out or something, you know? For sure, I mean, I'm going for the vital organs, you know? Play dead. Play dead. And then we'll check it. There's no pride in that." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm going for the vital. Wow, pride even matters. See the ego, the same advice you gave, you got to put the ego aside with a bear. Even then, even then. Would you, how would you fight a bear or a lion? Just play dead?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Play dead, yeah. Could you beat a kangaroo? I'm gonna tell him a bad joke. A kangaroo. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Kangaroo? I'd beat the shit out of kangaroo. You reckon? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd, I mean, are we boxing gloves? We just like. How would a kangaroo attack a human? Try to kick him with the claws. Knock him down, and then they choke him. Stand on that tail. If we attack a human." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Down. What do the kangaroos do? They choke each other." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They don't choke each other. They choke each other, yeah? They choke each other. You don't believe me. Go and watch a video. They choke each other out. I've seen this, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With which, with which? A lock or what? Yeah, they knock him, and just grip like this. And hold him, choke him. What's the grip? A lock or what?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Just a giver. Just that little pause, how are they gripping?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I promise you, I'm not lying to clients, I'm pretty sure I've seen the video. They also do strange shit. Like if there's a predator around, they'll wait in a pool of water. And then if it comes to attack, they drown it." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "They're pretty smart. Okay, speaking of which, what's the most effective martial art for winning a street fight? You talked about rule sets and streets. I think you've talked about being a street, have you ever been in a street fight?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, just one. Yeah. Nothing special, nothing crazy, hey." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, you don't talk about that time. Like for self-defense purposes, what would be a strategy on the street?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I feel like whoever wins a street fight, whoever's willing to take it the furthest, the fastest. You know what I mean? If you're thinking you're gonna box and he's biting you, poking your eyes, that guy's gonna win. He wants them more. You know what I mean? That's why the crackheads fight. They go for the kill straight away. So I feel like it's more about who's willing to do the most that's gonna win that fight." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Fastest, the most fastest. Who's got the least to lose, you know? Okay, we can also define winning differently because you could also run away. But in terms of technique-wise, wrestling, judo." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I think if it's a one-on-one, I'd go wrestler wins. But if it's like a, you know, it's like multiple people, you gotta go muy tie, stay on their feet. Can't go down to the ground if it's more than one person. Yeah, big double leg maybe. Yeah, double leg, put them out of sleep on the impact, right? Foreheads to the ground. Yeah, what's the goal here?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Is the win the fight and not go to prison? I haven't thought of it through that way. Yeah, certainly, yeah. Yeah, not to kill the person. You got mutual combat here." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You got mutual combat here in Texas, we're good." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Is that in Texas? Do you know what the paperwork for that looks like? You have to actually sign something?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I hope I don't need to find out. I did hear a story where guys were on Sixth Street and they looked at a cop, they were like, mutual combat, mutual combat, and just got like the cops to say yes and just duked it out. They could be false though. That sounds crazy. Say it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I kinda admire that, but I've also been playing Red Dead Redemption recently, so I've internalized the cowboy a little too much. Just to return to gym stuff. No, because it's a business, because you're running a business, there's money involved, but you're also friends, but you're also training partners. Is there a tension that money creates that can threaten to destroy friendships? That's something I always worry about with money. I try not to go do any kind of business" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "with friends or family. I think if it were all very clear and honest and open at the start, it makes it much easier. I think people have issues when there's like, kind of like things are written in fine print and nobody knows the exact answers. And a lot of judicial guys can't read. Yeah, that makes a challenge as well. We're learning that today. Yeah. Hey. No. Definitely complicated though." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Makes a challenge as well. We're learning that today. Yeah, I mean, it's not always obvious how to be transparent and stuff about everything. Have you felt that tension? Because in a judicial world, money's not really unlimited. Just running a school, what's that like? Is this the first time you're running a school?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Running a gym? Yeah, I mean, it's just constantly updating people about what's going on, what your expectations are. You know what I mean? We've had some problems with coaches who I feel like think the pie's bigger than it is. You know what I mean? They feel like maybe we're getting rich out of this and they're missing out on things. So it's like, even amongst managing staff, that can be challenging too. So yeah, I mean, it's a constant work in progress to make, not only to make sure everyone's happy, but to make sure they're comfortable enough to reach out and tell you they're unhappy. But I feel like those challenges are common" }, { "from": "human", "value": "amongst any small business. Still, it sucks. Just to mention, I'm clueless to this, but I'm just not learning this. Somebody I met and talked to and I really like is Isaac. And he's just learned, because you're also active on Reddit. What's your name on it? Is it my John Belushi's mom?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And he's just learned name on it. Is it my John Belushi's mom?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "As undercover as possible, you know? Oh, it's not you. It's actually John Belushi's mom, right? So I've done my research, I guess. And I guess you guys had a falling out and have split. I just want to say that, I don't know, the few interactions I've had with him, he's a beautiful human being, so. And that just shows to me. Visually, maybe not internally. And sexually, just to experience that, no. He's just a kind person, I don't know. I liked him a lot. Like, to me, in a business setting, yeah, tensions are created and it sucks. I don't know. I mean, I suppose money, all the stuff that happened in the jungle aside, probably money had a role to play to create extra tension. Money and egos about who is the leader, who is not the leader, it's tough. It's tough to manage that kind of stuff. I've seen it happen with judicial schools a lot. I don't know exactly what. Because it's like, there is also a hierarchy inside grappling, judicial schools, like people that are better or not. There's literally ranks, Black Belt and Brown Belt. There's competitors that are better. I mean, it's a weird dynamic in which to operate. Cause like, usually there's more politeness and like humanity layered into the way a company works. But here there's just a bunch of, I mean, it's like violence laid on display plus money. It's crazy. Is there something you could say to that? Like how you try to minimize" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or something you want to comment on, Isaac? Yeah, I mean, it was unfortunate situation, but it just didn't work out. You know, like there's going to be personality clashes." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Some people- I can't imagine anyone having a personality clash with you. With me? Yeah. It's hard to imagine." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Surprising. Surprising. You know, I mean, I didn't even know what to say on that. I don't want to touch on it too much, but obviously his expectations about his role in the gym, obviously different from ours, led to some personality clashes that were sort of unresolved. Well, you know, something's happened that can't be resolved. You can't fix those things, you know? Obviously a lesson, I hope for both of us, definitely a lesson for me from a management role to try to address these things sooner, but also sometimes I came up in a different time where there was no money, no opportunities. I had to pave that way totally for myself, especially coming from Australia. Like being a professional athlete in Jiu-Jitsu was not, I think so, I had to pave a lot of opportunities for myself. And I feel like sometimes, I don't know what the right word is, sometimes people don't appreciate some of the ways you help them. And they just think, feel like almost they deserve or entitled to certain things. And that is very difficult to manage. But I think again, like we both see the situation different. I do hope he finds a better, a more comfortable place to train. But yeah, obviously I've known him for a long time, sort of like a brotherly relationship. So that's gonna really make personal problems a lot worse" }, { "from": "human", "value": "when you're that close to someone, you know? I just hated that, like I've seen in Jiu-Jitsu especially, but in other places where like close friendships were destroyed because of like gym stuff, like people running gyms. And just as a person who is in this case, just a fan, but in general just like a student, it's like sucks." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But again, in my position, sometimes I wonder if there really was a friendship or mere opportunity. I have to be careful of that with some people in the sport. They start, yeah. Is it a sincere relationship or like, I mean, it's difficult for me to tell or am I at means to an end?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "They start, yeah. Sure, but I think it's actually a trade-off because I think a lot of close friendships we have, like even relationships we have, like when tested, like can break if they're not properly communicated. Like some of it could be just misunderstanding of like for a long period of time. It's not explained to religious lack of integrity. It's just like you have to like talk through that shit. Like just be honest with each other. Take some MDMA and really get down to it. Drugs solve everything. You've already eaten from this conversation. I've actually haven't done MDMA yet. People say that that's something I would enjoy a lot because my brain is I think natural on MDMA. I'd recommend it for sure. For sure, all right. Is that what you do with Gabby ML? Okay, nevermind. She drugged me. In general, why is there always seems to be drama in the judicial world? Like outside of what's going on here? Or is that just a- I think it's universal to anything. Drama's everywhere and then drama rises to the surface. Drama makes the money. Yeah, I wish there was a little bit less. You have a bunch of, like we mentioned some of them, you have a bunch of instructionals out. What are some interesting things that you're looking forward to like exploring in terms of teaching? So just stand up as your most recent one, right? Yeah, you also have one called Power Bottom, an inclusive modern approach to the guard. Yep, yep. What are some other ones? False reap allegations. False reap allegations, yeah. By the way, people talk about Power Bottom, again, hilarious title, but they say" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "it's a really good instructional, unlike the guard. They can really get down to it, eh? And then drama with us. Yeah, I try to at least be innovative. Like everyone else, I feel like is ripping off John and Gordon, putting some sort of slants on that. So I'm trying to take sort of a different approach. I think you can actively influence the sport with what you release, because people are gonna try to emulate that. So I think those type of instructionals, just stand up, Power Bottom, like approaching the sport differently, I think definitely has a positive impact on how people play the game. Yeah, are you working on something now? Probably a fundamentals course, just cause we're bringing out with the Y-Bell program coming in. So I'm trying to develop a fundamentals course along the line of the constraint-based learning stuff we were talking about today, like a way to approach learning as a beginner, to sort of speed up the process a bit and not make it as so technique dense," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "at least have it a bit more fun." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And focusing in on just like examples of problems to solve. Exactly, yeah, approaching judicious learning that way. Like, I mean, kids learn quick through games. I think adults are capable of that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to a certain extent as well. You're releasing that instructional on pre-match preparation? Yes. One of the stuff." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you have a thing on a body lock pass? Yeah, I have a body lock or righty lock DVD or instructional. Yeah, I had the pre-match ritual coming out. I also have, I'm filming how to build athleticism for grappling. Just really trying to capture different angles, kind of like the same, what Craig's doing, trying not to do the same thing that everybody else does. There's a ton of wrestling, ton of jiu-jitsu instructional, so. And the steroid results are coming in. Oh, yeah, yeah. More plates, more dates, Derek, that runs that. Hit me up for a blood panel test, like an impromptu thing. And I did it a few days ago" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and I believe the results will come out shortly." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Oh, yeah. Do you know the results? What are you betting on, Lex? What do you think? It's hard to believe, you know? Yeah, it's very impressive. You're putting me in awkward position here. Do you think you'll face Gordon soon? I'm open to it. I don't know how soon, maybe in the next six months." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I could see me facing him before ADCC Worlds. I think that's a great rivalry. I think it's a really interesting one. It's fun for me. Is there any chance that the two, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany get back together? That DDS under whatever name gets back together?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, absolutely not. Highly unlikely, I mean. We kind of did this to back up Nikki Ryan" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and we're sticking with our guy. So what do you think?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, I think there's just too many personality conflicts" }, { "from": "human", "value": "for it to really ever work again." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you think there will always be war in the world? War? Yeah. Oh yeah, I think from the beginning of time, it's been some kind of war, some kind of battle." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Controversy is what helps people evolve. Until AI, super intelligent AI, becomes way more powerful than humans and humbles all of us with its power before it destroys us." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, no, until it runs out of batteries. You guys are screwed. Just unplug it, just unplug it, just unplug it. Awesome." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm really fortunate to be able to hang out with you, to train with you, and thank you so much for talking today." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "All right, all right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That was the best ending. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones, Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words for Miyamoto Musashi. You must understand that there's more than one path to the top of the mountain. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "What are the biggest challenges running the company of that size?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Let's start with a sort of big overview question. The biggest challenges I think are not in running them, it's in changing them. And that idea to know what you should change and what you should not change. Actually, people don't always ask that question. What should endure, even if it has to be modernized, but what should endure? And then I found the hardest part was changing how work got done." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It's such a big company. What was the parts that you thought should endure? The core of the company that was beautiful and powerful and could persist through time," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that it should persist through time. I'd be interested, do you have a perception" }, { "from": "human", "value": "of what you think it would be? Do I have a perception? Well, I'm a romantic for a history of long-running companies. So there's kind of a tradition as a AI person. To me, IBM has some epic sort of research accomplishments where you show off Deep Blue and Watson, just impressive big moonshot challenges and accomplishing those. But that's, I think, probably a small part of what IBM is." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's mostly like the sexy public facing part and accomplishing those. Yeah, well, certainly the research part itself is over 3,000, so it's not that small. That's a pretty big research group. But the part that should endure ends up being a company that does things that are essential to the world, meaning, the who, you know, think back, you said you're a romantic, it was the 30s, the social security system. It was putting the man on the moon. It was, to this day, banks don't run, railroads don't run, that is at its core, it's doing mission-critical work. And so, that part I think is at its core, it's a business-to-business company and at its core, it's about doing things that are really important" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to the world becoming running and being better. Running the infrastructure of the world," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "so doing it at scale, doing it reliably. Yes, secure in this world, that's like everything. And in fact, when I started, I almost felt people were looking for what that was. And together we sort of, in a word, was to be essential. And the reason I loved that word was, I can't call myself essential. You have to determine I am, right? So it was to be essential. Even though some of what we did is exactly what you said, it's below the surface, so many people, most people say to me, well, what does IBM do now, right? And over the years, it's changed so much. And today it's really a software and consulting company. Consulting is a third of it. And the software is all hybrid cloud and AI. That would not have been true, as you well know, back even two decades ago, right? So it changes, but I think at its core, it's that be essential. You said moonshot, can't all be moonshots, because moonshots don't always work," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but mission critical work. So given the size though, when you started running it, did you feel the sort of thing that people usually associate with size, which is bureaucracy, and maybe the aspect of size that hinder progress or hinder pivoting, did you feel that?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You would, for lots of reasons. I think when you're a big company, sometimes people think of process as the client themselves, or the, you know, I always say to people, your process is not your customer. There is a real customer here that you exist for. And that's really easy to fall into because they're, you know, people are a master to this process and that's not right. And when you're big, the other thing, and boy, there's a premium on it, is speed, right? That in our industry, you gotta be fast. And go back, like when I took over and it was 2012, you know, we had a lot of catching up to do and a lot of things to do, and it was moving so fast. And as you well know, all those trends were happening at once, which made them go even faster. And so pretty unprecedented actually for that many trends to be at one time. And I used to say to people, go faster, go faster, go faster. And honestly, I've tired them out. I mean, it kind of dawned on me that when you're that big, that's a really valuable lesson. And it taught me like the how's, perhaps more important than the what. Because if I didn't do something to change how work was done, like change those processes or give them new tools, help them with skills, they couldn't, they just like do the same thing faster. If someone tells you, you know, you got hiking boots and they're like, no, go run a marathon. You're like, I can't do it in those boots. But so you've gotta do something. And at first, I think the ways for big companies, I would call them like blunt clubs. You do what everyone does, you reduce layers. Because if you reduce layers, decisions go faster. There's just, it's math. If there's less decision points, things go faster. You do the blunt club thing. And then after that though, it did lead me down a, you know, a long journey of, they sound like buzzwords, but if you really do them at scale, they're hard around things like agile. And because you've really gotta change the way work gets done. And we ended up training, God, hundreds of thousands of people on that stuff to really change it. Correctly. On how to do it correctly. That's right. Versus, because everybody talks about it. But the idea that you would really have small, multi-disciplinary teams work from the outside in, set those sort of interim steps. You know, take the feedback, pivot, and then do it on, not just products, do it on lots of things. It's hard to do at scale. People always say, oh, I got this agile group over here, 40 people. But not when you're a couple hundred thousand people." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "You gotta get a lot of people to work that way. To really change it. The blunt club thing you're talking about." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So flatten the organization as much as possible. So as much as possible. Yeah, yeah. I probably reduce the layers of management by half. And so that has lots of benefits, right? Time to a decision, more autonomy to people. And then the idea of faster clarity of where you're going. Because you're not just filtered through so many different layers. And I think it's the kind of thing a lot of companies, if you're big, have to just keep going through. It's kind of like grass grows. You know, it just comes back. And you gotta go back down and work on it. So it's a natural thing. But I hear so many people talk about it, Lex. This idea of like, okay, who makes a decision? You've often heard nobody can say yes and everybody can say no. And that's actually what you're trying to get out of a system like that." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So, I mean, your book in general, the way you lead is very much about we and us. You know, the power of we. But is there times when a leader has to step in and be almost autocratic, take control" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and make hard, unpopular decisions? Oh, I am sure you know the answer to that. And it is, of course, yes. It's just fun to hear you say it. It's fun to say it. Yeah, you know, because I actually, A, there's a leader for a time, but then there's a leader for a situation, right? And so I've had to do plenty of unpopular things. I think anytime you have to run a company that endures a century and has to endure another century, you will do unpopular things. You have no choice. And I often felt I had to sacrifice things for the long term. And whether that would have been, you know, really difficult things like, you know, job changes or reductions, or whether it would be things like, hey, you know, we're gonna change the way we do our semiconductors and a whole different philosophy. You have no choice. I mean, and in times of crisis as well, you gotta be, I always said it's not a popularity contest. So, that's none of these jobs are popularity contests. I don't care if your company's got one person" }, { "from": "human", "value": "or half a million, they're not popularity contests. Of course, yes. It's just fun to hear you say. But psychologically, is it difficult to just sort of step in as a new CEO and, because you're fighting against tradition and against all these people that act like experts of their thing, and they are experts of their thing," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to step in and say, we have to do it differently. We have to do it differently. When you gotta change a company, it's really tempting to say, throw everything else out, back to that what must endure, right? But, I know when I took over to start, I knew how much had to change, more I got into it, I could see, wow, a lot more had to change, right? Because we needed a platform, we'd always done our best, when we had a platform, a technology platform. You will go back in time and you'll think of the mainframe systems. You'll think of the PC. You'll think of perhaps Middleware, you could even call services, a platform, we needed a platform, the next platform to be there. Skills, when I took over, we inventoried, who had modern skills for the future, it was two out of 10 people, for the future. Not that they didn't have relevant skills today, but for the future, two out of 10, yikes, that's a big problem, right? The speed at which things were getting done, that has to, so you got so much to do, and you say, is that a scary thing? Yes, do you have to sometimes dictate? Yes, but I did fine, and it is worth it. I know every big company I know, my good friend that runs General Motors, as she's had to change, go back to what is them, them, you know? And when you do that, that back to be essential, we kind of started with, hey, it's be essential, then the next thing I could do with the team was say, okay, now this means new era of computing, new buyers are out there, and hey, we better have new skills. Okay, now the next thing, how do you operationalize it? And it just takes some time," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but you can engineer that and get people to build belief. And for the skills, that means hiring, that means training." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yes, yes, oh boy, that's a long, skills is a really long topic in and of itself. I try to put my view in it, I learned a lot, and I changed my view on this a lot. I'll go back at my very beginning, say 40 years ago, I would have said at that point, okay, I was always in a hurry. I was interviewing to hire people, I don't know how you hire people. 40 years ago, I'd be like, okay, I gotta fit in these interviews. I gotta hire someone to get this done, okay. Then time would go on, I'm like, that's not very good. In fact, someone once said to me, hey, hire the best people to work for you and your job gets a lot easier. Okay, I should spend more time on this topic. I spent more time on it. Then it was like, okay, hire experts, okay? Okay, hired a lot of experts over my life. And then I was really like an epiphany and it really happened over my tenure running the company and having to change skills. If someone's an expert at something and has just done that for 30 years, the odds of them really wanting to change a lot are pretty low. And when you're in a really dynamic industry, that's a problem. And so, okay, that was kind of my first revelation on this. And then when I looked at hiring, I can remember when I started my job, we needed cyber people. And I go out there and I look, unemployment in the US was almost 10%. Can't find them. Okay, it's 10% and I can't find the people. Okay, what's the issue? Okay, they're not teaching the right things. That led me down a path and it was serendipity that I happened to do a review of social, corporate social responsibility. We had this one little fledgling school in a low income area. And high school with a community college, we gave them internships, direction on curriculum. Oh, behold, we could hire these kids. I said, hmm, this is not CSR. Like I just found a new talent pool, which takes me to now what I'm doing in my post retirement. I'm like, this idea that don't hire just for a college degree, we had 99% of our hires were college and PhDs. And I'm all for it. So you're very, don't, don't. I'm deeply offended. No, you should not be. And I, you know, I'm vice chair at Northwestern, one of the vice chair. But, but I said, I just really like aptitude does not equal access. These people didn't have access, but they had aptitude. It changed my whole view to skills first. And so now for hiring, that's kind of a long story to tell you the number one thing I would hire for now is somebody's willingness to learn. You know, and you can test, you can try different ways, but their curiosity and willingness to learn hands down," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I will take that trait over anything else they have. So the interview process, the question, everything changed. The kind of things you talked to them about is try to get at how curious they are about the world." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Testing, change, everything. We can do testing and I mean, there's what we triangulated around it lots of ways. And now look, they're at the heart of it. What it would do is change. You don't think of buying skills. You see, you think of building skills. And when you think that way, with so many people, and I think this country, many developed countries being disenfranchised, you got to bring them back into the workforce somehow. And they got to get some kind of contemporary skills. And if you took that approach, you can bring them back" }, { "from": "human", "value": "into the workforce. Yeah, I think some interesting combination of humility and passion, because like you said, experts sometimes lack humility if they call themselves an expert for a few too many years. So you have to have that beginner's mind and a passion to be able to aggressively constantly be a beginner" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "at everything and learn and learn and learn. I saw it firsthand when we were beginning this path down the cloud and AI, and people would say, oh, IBM, it's existential. They got to change and all these things. And I did hire a lot of people from outside, very willing to learn new things. Come on in, come on in. And I sometimes say, shiny objects, trained in shiny objects, come on in. But I saw something, it was another one of these, and you're not a shiny object, I'm not saying that. But I learned something. Okay, some of them did fantastic. And others, they're like, well, let me school you on everything. But they didn't realize like, we did really mission critical work, and then break a bank. I mean, they would not understand the certain kind of security and the auditability and everything they had to go on. And then I watched IBM people say, oh, I actually could learn something. Some were like, yeah, okay, I don't know how to do it. That's a really good thing I could learn. And in the end, there was not like one group was a winner and one was a loser. The winners were the people who were willing to learn from each other. I mean, it was to me, it was very stark example of that point, and I saw it firsthand. So that's why I'm so committed to this idea about skills first. And that's how people should be hired, promoted, paid," }, { "from": "human", "value": "you name it. Yeah, the AI in general, it seems like nobody really understands now what the future will look like. Well, I'll try and figure it out. So like what IBM will look like in 50 years in relation to the software business to AI is unknown. What Google will look like with all these companies. We're trying to figure it out. And that means constantly learning, taking risks, all of those things. And nobody's really skilled in AI. It's like, because you have to keep evolving, right?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. That's right." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Couldn't agree more with you on that. You wrote in the book, speaking of hiring, quote, my drive for perfection often meant I only focused on what needed to change without acknowledging the positive. This could keep people from trusting themselves. It could take me a while to learn that just because I could point something out didn't mean I should. I still spotted errors, but I became more deliberate about what I mentioned and sent back to get fixed. I also tried to curtail my tendency to micromanage and let people execute. I had to stop assuming my way was the best or only way. I was learning that giving other people control builds their confidence and that constantly trying to control people destroys it. So what's the right balance between showing the way" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and helping people find the way? That is a good question because like a really flip answer would be as it gets bigger, you have no choice, but to just, you know, you can't do it. You have to tell or show. I mean, you've got to let people find their way because it's so big, you can't, right? That's an obvious answer. Scope of work, bigger it gets. Okay, I've got to let more stuff go. But I have always believed that a leader's job is to do as well. And I think there's like a few areas that are really important that you always do. Now it doesn't mean you're showing. So like when it has to do with values and value-based decisions, like I think it's really important to constantly show people that you walk your talk on that kind of thing. It's super important. And I actually think it's a struggle young companies have because the values aren't deeply rooted. And when the storm comes, it's easy to uproot. And so I always felt like when it was that time, I showed it. I got taught that so young at IBM and even General Motors that, in fact, I do write about that in the book. First time I was a manager, I had a gentleman telling dirty jokes and not to me, but to other people. And it really offended people and some of the women. And this is the very early eighties. And they came, said something, I talked to my boss. I'm a first time manager. And he was unequivocal with what I should do. He said, and this was a top performer. It stops immediately or you fire him. So there are a few areas like that, that I actually think you have to always continue to role model and show, right? That to me, isn't the kind that," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "like when do you let go of stuff, right?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The values and relationships with clients. Yeah, whatever you're in service of. And the other thing was, I really felt it was really important to role model learning, right? So, I can remember when we started down the journey, and we went on to this thing called the Think Academy, IBM's long time motto had been think. And we said, okay, I'm gonna make the first Friday of every month compulsory education. And, okay, I mean, everybody, like everybody, I don't care what your job is, okay? When the whole company has to transform, everybody's gotta have some skin in this game and understand it. I taught the first hour of every month for four years. Now, okay, I had to learn something. So, but it made me, but I feel like, okay, if I can teach, the shoe can do it, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, kind of thing. So, it was a compulsory Thursday night education for you? Oh, I'm a little bit better prepared than that," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but yeah, so you're a little bit better prepared than that, but yes, you're so right, yes." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So, you prepare. So, like personality wise- That's another habit." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You like to prepare. So, like personality- That's another habit. Yeah, but this roots in that go back deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply, And I think it's an interesting reason so why do why are you you're prepared my friend? Yeah. Yes, you are you prepare for your interviews. Uh" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Sure the rest you wing yeah, I wing" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Okay, I mean you don't have to prepare everything I don't prepare everything either" }, { "from": "human", "value": "No, but I unfortunately wing stuff. I save it to last-minute. I push everything I'm always almost late and I don't know why that is. I mean, there's some deep psychological thing We should probably investigate but it's probably the anxiety brings out the performance that can be that's very true with some people I mean, so I'm a programmer engineer at heart and so So programmers famously overestimate or underestimate Sorry, how long that something's going to take and so I just everything always underestimate It's almost as if I want to feel this chaos of anxiety of a deadline or something like this Otherwise, I'll be lazy sitting on a beach with a pina colada and relaxing Yeah, I don't know so that we have to know ourselves but for you for me you like to prepare. Yeah" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, it came from a few different places. I mean one would have been as a as a kid I think I was not a memorizer and my brother is brilliant He can he read it once boom done And so I always wanted to understand like how something happened didn't matter what it was I was doing it whether it was algebra theorems. I was wanted don't give me the answer Don't give me the answer You know, I want to figure it out figure out so I could reproduce it again and didn't have to memorize So it started with that and then over time Okay, so I was in university in the 70s when I was in engineering school I was the only woman, you know, I'll meet people still to this day and they're like, oh, I remember you I'm like, yeah, sorry. I don't remember you there were 30 of you one of me and I Think you already get that feeling of okay I better really study hard because whatever I say is going to be remembered in this class Good or bad in it started there. So in some ways I did it for two reasons early on I think it was a shield for confidence The more I studied the more prepared I was the more confident That's probably still true to this day. The the second reason I did it evolved over time and became different to prepare If I was really prepared Then when we're in the moment, I can really listen to you see because I don't have to be doing all this stuff on the fly in my head and I could actually take things I know and Maybe help the situation. So it really became a way that I could be present and in the moment and I Think it's something a lot of people that in the moment. I learned it from my husband He doesn't prepare by the way at all. So that's not it But I but I watch the in the moment the negative exam. No, no, no He died and I'm not going to change that as he says it's a tight see I'm an A Okay, I'll love works. Yeah, and I have been married 43 years that seems to work So but that idea that you could be in the moment with people is a really important thing" }, { "from": "human", "value": "But how did you but I watched the in the moment the negative. Yes, I'm an A. Okay, so love works Yeah, yeah, so the preparation gives you the freedom to really be present so just a linger on the you mentioned your brother and it seems like in the book that you really had to Work hard when you study to sort of Given that you weren't good at memorization You really truly deeply want to understand the stuff and you put in the hard work and that seems to persist throughout your career so You know hard work is often associated with Sort of has negative associations. Well, maybe with burnout with dissatisfaction Is there some aspect of hard work at the core of who you are that led to happiness for you? I" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Enjoy it so I'll be the first in and I'm really careful to say that to people because I don't think everyone should associate G To do what you did? You have to there's only one route there right and that's just not true And I I do it because I like it in fact I'm careful and as time goes on you have to be careful is more people watch you whether you like it You're a role model or not. You are a role model for people Whether you know it like it on it does not matter I learned that the hard way and I would have to say people hey just cuz I do this does not mean I do it For these reasons, right? It's a be really explicit and I'd come to believe usually when people say the word power I don't know. Do you have a positive or negative notion when I say the word power? We're just doing probably negative one Yeah for some stereotype or some view that it's somebody's abused it in some way. You can read the newspaper. Somebody's doing something Personal people like I'll ask people do you want power and they're like, oh no, I'd rather do good Yeah, and I think the irony is you need power to do good. And so that sort of led me down to in" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "It was I thought about my own life, right? Cuz it's it starts in a probably negative one" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, like many of us, you know, you don't have a lot but you don't know that because you're like everybody else around you At that time and I went in tragedy, right? My father leaves my mother a homeless no money. No food. Nothing for kids. She's never worked a day in her life outside of a home and I the irony that I hear I would end up as the ninth CEO of one of America's iconic companies And now I co-chair this group 110 and that journey I said the biggest thing I learned was you could do really hard meaningful things in a positive way So now you asked me about why do I work so hard? I ended up writing the book in three pieces for this reason when you really think of your life and power I thought it kind of felt like a pebble in water. Like there's a ring about You really care about yourself and like the power of yourself power of me There's a time it transcends to that you are working with and for others in another moment when it becomes like about society So my hard work I'd ask you One day sit really hard and think about when you close your eyes. Who do you see from your early life? Right and what did you learn? And maybe it's not that hard for you. I mean it was it's It's funny the things then right if I really looked at it it's no surprise what I do today and that hard work part my great-grandma as you and I were comparing notes on Russia, right and Never spoke English spoke Russian came here to this country was a cleaning person at the Wrigley building in Chicago Yet if she hadn't saved every dime she made My mother wouldn't have a home and wouldn't have had a car. Right? What did I learn from that hard work? In fact, actually she when I went to college, she's like, you know, you really should be on a farm You're so big and strong You know, that was her view and then my grandmother Another tragic life. What did she do though? And think how long that's in the 40s the 50s She made lampshades and she taught me how to sew right so I could sell clothes when we couldn't afford them but my my memory of my grandma is working seven days a week sewing lampshades and And then here comes my mom in her situation who climbs her way out of it so I associate that with well strong women by the way all strong women and I associate hard work with How you are sure you can always take care of yourself And so I think if the roots go way back there and they were always teaching something right? My great-grandma was teaching me how to cook how to work a farm. Even though I didn't need to be on a farm My grandma taught me, you know, here's how to sew here's how to run a business And then my mother would teach us that look but just a little bit of education look at the difference it could make right? So anyways, that's a long answer to I think that hard work thing is really Deeply rooted from that background. It gives you a way out from hard times. Yeah, you know I think I've seen you on other podcasts say I Thought I did. Do you want to plan B? Didn't you say no you would not like a plan B? Yeah, cuz you're like I would prefer my back up against in my memory like that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, cuz you're against in my memory like that You seem to like at least certain moments in your life seem to" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do well in desperate times true enough. I true enough. That's true I learned that very well, but I also think that maybe this isn't the same kind of plan B I think of it as like I was taught like always be able to take care of yourself Don't have to rely on someone else. Sure. And I think that to me that so so that's my plan B I can take care of myself and it's it's even after what I lived through with my father I thought well this set a bar for bad after this" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Nothing's bad and in that it's a very freeing thought the being able to take care of yourself Is that you mean practically do you mean just a self-belief that I'll figure it out?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I'll figure it out and practically both, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "So you wrote quote? I vividly remember the last two weeks of my freshman year when I only had 25 cents left I put the quarter in a clear plastic box on my desk and just stared at it. This is it I thought no more money So do you think there's some aspect of that financial stress even desperation just being hungry? Does that play a role in that drive that led to your success to be the CEO, you know?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "one of the great companies ever it's ever it's a really interesting question because I was just talking to another colleague who's CEO of another great American company this weekend and He mentioned to me about all this adversity and he said I said to him I said Do you think? Part of your success is because you had bad stuff happen and he said yes, you know And so I I guess I'd be Lying if I didn't say I don't think you have to have tragedy But it does teach you like one really important thing is that there is always a way forward" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Always and it's in your control. I think there's probably wisdom for mentorship there or whether your parent or a mentor" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That easy times don't result in growth. Yeah, I've heard a lot of my friends and they they worry They said my kids have never had bad times Yeah, and so what you know what happens here. So, I don't know is it is it required? And why you end up? Not required, but it sure didn't hurt" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, you had this good line about advice you were given that growth and comfort never coexist" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Growth and comfort never coexist and you have to get used to that thought if someone said that they think of me like one of the more profound lessons I had" }, { "from": "human", "value": "In the irony is it's from my husband and that which is even more, you know, funny. Actually, I really found" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You could just steal it. I mean, you know, I have shamelessly he'll tell you. Oh, I have shamelessly he'll tell you Okay, so the story behind growth and comfort never coexist But honestly, I think it's been a really freeing thought for me and it's helped me immensely since mid-career and as I write about it in the book, I'm mid-career and I've been running a pretty big business actually in the fellow. I workforce gonna get a new job It's gonna get promoted. He calls me and he says hey, you're gonna get my job I really want you to have it and I said to him no way. I said, I'm not ready for that job I got a lot more things. I got to learn that is like a huge job around the world every product line Development, you name it every function. I can't do it. He looked at me He says well, I think you should go to the interview. I went to interview the next day But blah blah guy says to me looks at me and he says I want to offer you that job And I said I would like to think about it. I said I want to go home and talked to my husband about it I kind of looked at me. Okay, I went home. My husband is sitting there and he says to me I went on and on about the story, etc. And he says Do you think a man would have answered it that way and I said He says, I know you. He's like, six months, you're going to be bored. And all you can think of is what you don't know. And he said, I know these other people, you have way more skill than them, and they think they could do it. And he's like, why? And for me, it internalizes feeling that I am going to say something as if it's a stereotype that it resonates with many, many women, and I'll ask you if it does after, is that they're the most harsh critic of themselves. And so this idea that I won't grow unless I can feel uncomfortable doesn't mean I always have to show it, by the way. So that's why I meant growth and comfort can never coexist. So I was like, he's exactly right. Now, the end of that story is I went in, I took the job, when I went back to the man who was really my mentor looking out for me, and he looked at me and he said, don't ever do that again. And I said, I understand, because it was okay to be uncomfortable. I didn't have to use it. I mean, now I would take stock of the things I can do, right? And really think, or I look for times to be uncomfortable, because I know if I am nervous, like, I don't know if you're nervous to meet me, we never met in real person. I'm still terrified. No, you're not. But then you're, it means you're learning something, right? Holding it together. So that to me matters." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm still terrified. I think it's interesting. Maybe you could speak to that, the sort of the self critical thing inside your, inside your brain. Because I think sometimes it's talked about the women have that. But I have that, definitely. And I think that's not just solely property of women in the workplace. But I also want to sort of push back on the idea that that's a bad thing that you should silence because I think that anxiety, that leads to growth also. That's like this discomfort. There's this weird balance you have to have between that self critical engine and confidence. Yeah, I think that's a good point. You have to kind of dance because if you're super confident, people will value you higher, that's important. But if you're way too confident, maybe in the short term you'll gain" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "but in the long term, you won't grow. Yes, I think that's a good point. Very good point. So I can't really disagree with that. And to me even when I took on jobs, I always felt people say, well, is it, you know, what point are you confident enough? And I came to sort of believe, again, a theme of my beliefs that if I was willing to ask lots of questions and understood enough," }, { "from": "human", "value": "that's all I needed to know. Let me ask you about your husband a little bit. So you write in the book, you write in the book, he's just jumping around, and like I said," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I'm a bit of a romantic, so how did you meet your husband? Husband a little bit, so you write. So I met my husband when I was 19 years old, so I was a young kid, and I met him when I had a General Motors scholarship. So I was at Northwestern University through my first two years, had a lot of loans, financial aid, and a professor said, hey, you should sign up for this interview. They're looking to bring forward diverse candidates through their management track. Now these programs don't exist anymore like that. They will pay your tuition, your room and board, your expenses, Northwestern, other Ivy League schools, these very expensive schools, and I think you'd be a good fit. I am eternally thankful for that advice. I went and I interviewed, I actually got the scholarship. I mean, without it, I'd have graduated with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. So part of that was in the summer, I had to work in Detroit. I lived in a little room by a cement plant, not theirs, but I mean, that's all I could afford. It's very romantic. Very, very romantic, and the person who owned the house said, hey, I'm having a party, you're not invited, I'm going to fix you up with someone tonight. And that turned out to be my husband. And so it was a blind date, is how we very first met." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "And then it was over, it was, the story was written. It was over, it was, the story was written. Yep. Let's, if it's okay, just zoom out to, you mentioned power and good power a few times. So if we can just even talk about it, your book is called Good Power, Leading Positive Change in Our Lives, Work and World. What is good power?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's the essence of good power? So the essence of it would be doing something hard or meaningful, but in a positive way. I would also tell you, I hope one day I'm remembered for how I did things, not just for what I did. I think that could almost be more important, and I think it's a choice we can all make. So the essence to me of good power, if I had to contrast good to bad, let's say, would be that first off, you have to embrace and navigate tension. This is the world we live in. And by embracing tension, not running from it, you would bridge divides that unites people, not divides them. It's hard thing to do, but you can do it. You do it with respect, which is the opposite of fear. A lot of people think way to get things done is fear. And then the third thing would be, you gotta celebrate some progress versus perfection. Because I also think that's what stops a lot of things from happening. Because if you go for whatever your definition of perfect is, it's either polarization or paralyzation. I mean, something happens in there. Versus, no, no, no, I can, don't worry about getting to that actual exact end point. If I keep taking a step forward of progress, really tough stuff can get done. And so my view of that is like, honestly, I hope it can, I said it's like a memoir with purpose. I'm only doing it, it was a really hard thing for me to do because I don't actually talk about all these things. Then I had to, nobody cares about your scientific description of this. They want the stories in your life to bring it alive. So it's a memoir with purpose. And in the writing of it, it became the power of me, the power of we, and the power of us. The idea that you build a foundation when you're young. Mostly from my work life, the power of we, which says I kind of, in retrospect, could see five principles on how to really drive change that would be done in a good way. And then eventually you could scale that, the power really of us, which is what I'm doing about finding better jobs for more people now that I co-chair an organization called 110. So that essence of navigate tensions, do it respectfully, celebrate progress, and give me, indulge me one more minute, these sort of, again, it's retrospect that I didn't know this in the moment. I had to learn it, I learned it. I am blessed by a lot of people I worked with and around. But some of the principles, like the first one says if you're gonna do something, change something, do something, you've gotta be in service of something. Being in service of is really different than serving, super different. And, like I just had my knee replaced. And I interviewed all these doctors. You can tell the difference that the guy who's gonna do a surgery, hey, my surgery's fine. I really don't care whether you can walk and do the stuff you wanted to do again. because my surgery is fine. Your hardware is good. I actually had some trouble. And I had a doctor who was like, you know, this doesn't sound right. I'm coming to you. The surgery was fine. It was me that was reacting wrong to it. And he didn't care until I could walk again. Okay, there's a big difference in those two things. And it's true in any business you have. A waiter serves you food. Okay, he serves his food, he did his job. Or did he care he had a good time. So that thought to be in service of it took me a while to get that like to try to write it to get that across because I think it's like so fundamental. If people were really in service of something, you got to believe that if I fulfill your needs, at the end of the day, mine will be fulfilled. And that is that essence that makes it so different. And then the second part, second principle is about building belief, which is I got to hope you'll voluntarily believe in a new future or some alternate reality. And you will use your discretionary energy versus me ordering you, you'll get so much more done. Then the third change and endure, we kind of talked about that earlier, focus more on the how and the skills. And then the part on good tech and being resilient. So anyways, I just felt that, like good tech, everybody's a tech company, I don't care what you do today. And there's some fundamental things you got to do. In fact, pick up today's any newspaper, right? I mean, chat GPT, you're an AI guy. All right. I believe one of the tenets of good tech is it's like responsibility for the long term. It says, so if you're going to invent something, you better look at its upside and its downside. Like we did quantum computing. Great, a lot of great stuff, right? Materials development, risk management calculations, endless list one day. On the other side, it can break encryption. That's a bad thing. So we work equally hard on all the algorithms that would sustain quantum. I think with chat, okay, great. There's equal in there, people working on it, but like, okay, the things that say, Hey, I can tell this was written with that, right? Because the implications on how people learn, right? If this is not a great thing, if all it does is do your homework, that is not the idea of homework as someone who liked to study so hard, but anyways, you get my point. It's just the upside and the downside." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "It's the upside and the downside. And that there could be much larger implications that are much more difficult to predict and it's our responsibility. Absolutely." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "To really work hard to figure that out. Absolutely. I was talking to AI ethics a decade ago and I'm like, why won't anybody listen to us? That's another one of those values things that you realize, hey, if I want to bring technology in the world, I better bring it safely. And that to me comes with when you're an older company that's been around, you realize that society gave you a license to operate and it can take it away. And we see that happen to companies and therefore you're like, okay, like why I feel so strong about skills. Hey, if I'm going to bring in, it's going to create all these new jobs, job dislocation, then I should help. I'm trying to help people get new skills. Anyways, that's a long answer to what good tech, but the idea that there's kind of in retrospect a set of principles you could look at and maybe learn something from my sort" }, { "from": "human", "value": "of rocky road through there. But it started with the power of we, and there's that big leap I think that propagates through the things you're saying, which is the leap from focusing on yourself to the focusing on others. So that having that empathy you've said at some point in our lives and careers, our attention turns from ourselves to others. We still have our own goals, but we recognize that our actions affect many, that it is impossible to achieve anything truly meaningful alone. So it's to you, I think maybe you can correct me, but ultimate good power is about collaboration" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and maybe in large companies like delegation on great teams. The ultimate good power is actually doing something for society. That would be my ultimate definition of good power by the way, but how it's done, right? The how it's done. And so when you set a leap, do you think people make a leap when they go from thinking about themselves to others?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Do you think it's a leap or do you think it kind of just is a good part by the way? Because about the results of the thing. Yeah. Do you think it's sort of a slow point? I think the leap is in deciding that you will care about others. That it's like a leap of going to the gym for the first time. It's yes, it takes a long time to develop that and to actually care, but the decision that I'm going to actually care about are the human beings, yeah. I think, or at least like, yeah, it just feels like a deliberate action" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "you take of empathy. Yeah, because sometimes I think it happens a little, it's maybe not as deliberate, yeah, it's a little more gradual because it might happen because you realize that, geez, I can't get this done alone. So I got to have other people with me. Well, how do I get them to help me do something? So I think it does help and it'll happen a little bit more gradually. And as you get more confident, you start to not think so much that it's about you, and you start to think about this other thing you're trying to accomplish. And so, that's why I felt it was a little more gradual. I also felt like I can remember so well, this idea that, again, now we're in the 80s, 90s, I'm a woman, I'm in technology, and I was down in Australia at a conference, and I gave this great speech, again, I'm thinking of this great speech, financial services, this guy man walks up to me after, I think he's gonna ask me some great question, and he said to me, I wish my daughter could have been here. And in that moment, and at that point up to then, I'd always been about, look, please don't notice I'm a woman, do not notice that. I am, I just wanna be recognized for my work. Crossing over from me to we, like it or not, I was a role model for some number of people. And maybe I didn't wanna be, but that didn't really matter. So I could either accept that and embrace it or not. I think it's a good example of that transition. I did have a little epiphany with that happening. And then I'm like, okay, cause I would always be like, no, I won't go on a women's conference. I won't talk here. I won't, you know, no, no, no. But then I sort of realized, wait a second. You know, that'll saying you cannot be what you cannot see. And I said to myself, well, oh, wait a second. Okay, I am in these positions. I have a responsibility to, and it's to others. And that's what I mean, I felt like it can be so much gradual that you come and you may have these like pivotal moments that you see it, but then you feel it and you sort of move over" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that transom into the power of we. You're one of the most powerful tech leaders ever. And as you mentioned the word power, you know, the old saying goes power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely. Was there an aspect of power that was, that you had to resist its ability to corrupt your mind to sort of delude you into thinking you're smarter than you are, that kind of, all the ways." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "That's very dangerous, that's very dangerous. I agree with, I mean, I think you gotta be careful who you surround yourself with. That's how I would answer that question, right? And people who will hold the mirror up to you can be done in a very positive way, by the way. It doesn't mean, you know, but that we're sycophants, you cannot have that, right? I mean, it's like I would say to someone, hey, listen to me, who would make me better or do something or I have a husband that'll do that for me quite easily, by the way, you'll always tell me. But he's the one that can do some criticism sometimes. I have been surrounded myself with a number of people that will do that and I think you have to have that. I had a woman that worked with me for a very long time and at one time we were competitors and at some point she started to work for me and stayed with me for a great way and she was one of the few people that would tell me the truth in you know, Sometimes I'm like, enough already. And she'd be like, do not roll your eyes at this. And you absolutely have got to have that. And I think it also comes, it'll go back to my complete commitment to inclusion and diversity, because you gotta have that variety around you. You'll get a better product and a better answer at the end of the day. And so to resist that allure, I think it's about who you surround yourself with. I guess current politics would say that too." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "He's the one that kind of gives you some criticism. So you write a ball and in general, you value diversity a lot. So can you speak to almost like philosophically," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "what does diversity mean to you? Diversity to me means, I'm gonna get a better product, a better answer. I value different views. And so it's inclusion. So I always say inclusion, diversity is a number, inclusion is a choice. And you can make that choice every single day. That's a good line. I really believe and I've witnessed it that I've had when my teams are diverse, I get a better answer. My friends are diverse. I have a better life. I mean, all these kinds of things. And so, I also believe it's like No Silver Thread, There's No Easy Way. You have to authentically believe it. I mean, do you authentically believe" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that diversity is a good thing?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, but I believe that diversity like broadly. I very broadly define it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. Sometimes the way diversity is looked at with the way diversity is used today as surface level characteristics, which are also important, but they're usually reflective of something else, which is a diversity of background, a diversity of thought, a diversity of struggle, some people to grow up middle class, versus poor, different countries, different motivations, all of that, ya, is beautiful, and different people from very different walks of life get together, ya, it's beautiful to see, but sometimes it's very difficult to get at that on a sheet of paper of the characteristics that defines" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the diversity of diversity. I know, I know. So it is, it is just like, oh, I can't hire exactly for inquirer if you are trying to. But I do know one thing that when people say, oh, I can't find these kind of people I'm looking for, I'm like, you're just not looking in the right places. You have to open up, just say." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You gotta really open up new pools, right? You gotta really open up new pools, right? Yeah, you have to think, like everybody, you don't have to have a PhD," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "just like you said, yeah. I'm sorry to say it, you know, I know it's very valuable what you have," }, { "from": "human", "value": "trust me, but. You could, just like you said, it could even be a negative. So you mentioned like for good power, you are a CEO for a long time of a public company. Were there times when there was pressure to sacrifice what is good for the world for the bottom line in order to do what's good for the company?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "There were a lot of times for that. Negative. Yeah, there were a lot of times for that. I mean, I think every company faces that today in that I always felt like there's so much discussion about stakeholder capitalism, right? Do you just serve a shareholder? Do you have multiple? I have always found, and I've been very vocal about that topic, that when I participated the Business Roundtable wrote up a new purpose statement that had multiple stakeholders. I think it's common sense. Like if you're gonna be 100 years old, you only get there because you actually do at some time balance all these different stakeholders and what it is that you do. And short term, long term, all these trade-offs. And I always say people who write about it, they write about it black and white, but I have to live in a gray world. Nothing I've ever done has been in a black and white world hardly, maybe things of values that I had to answer. But most of it is gray. And so I think back lots of different decisions. I think back, which you would well remember, you're a student of history, IBM was one of really the originators of the semiconductor industry. And certainly of commercializing the semiconductor industry, great R&D and manufacturing, but it is a game of volume. And so when I came on, we were still manufacturing R&D and manufacturing our own chips. We were losing a lot of money. Yet here we had to fight a war on cloud and AI. And so, okay, now shareholders would say, fine, shut it down. Okay, those chips also power some of the most important systems that power the banks of today. If I just shut it down, well, what would that do? And so, okay, the answer wasn't just stop it. The answer wasn't just keep putting money into it. The answer was, and we had to kind of sit in an uncomfortable spot till we found a way. I mean, it's going to sound so basic, but you as an engineer understand it, we had to separate, it was a very integrated process of research, development, manufacturing, and you'd be perfecting things in manufacturing and these were very high-performance chips. We had to be able to separate those, we eventually found a way to do that so that we could take the manufacturing elsewhere and we would maintain the R&D. I think is a great example of the question you just asked because people would have applauded, others would have been, this was horrible. Or we had a financial roadmap that had been put in place that said, I'll make this amount EPS by this date. There came a time we couldn't honor it because we had to invest. And so there's a million of these decisions. I think most people that run firms, any size firm, they're just one right after another like that. And you're always making that short and long tension" }, { "from": "human", "value": "of what am I giving up? Well, what is that partnership like with the clients? Because you work with gigantic businesses and what's it like sort of really forming a great relationship with them, understanding what their needs are, being in service of their needs." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "In service of, in service of, yeah, very simple. Honor your promises and that happens over time. I mean, in service of, which is often why you could work with competitors because if you are really in service of you and you need something, it takes two of us to do it, that becomes easier to do because I really, we both care, you get what you needed. And so I can remember during one of the times I was on a European trip and at the time, and this is still true about views about technology and national technology giants and global ones and the pros and the cons and countries want their own national champions, quite obvious. I mean, if I'm France or Germany, and there was a lot of discussion about security and data and who was getting access to what. And I can remember being in one of the, I was with Chancellor Merkel, had met her many times. She's very well prepared, very well prepared every time she would know. And I started to explain all these things about why, how we don't share data, how, who it belongs to, our systems never had back doors and she sort of stopped me. Like you're one of the good guys, like stop. Now, that wasn't about me personally. She's talking about a company that's acted consistent with values for decades, right? So to me, how you work with those big kind of clients is you honor your promises, you say what you do when you do what you say and you act with values over a long period of time. And that to me, people say we're valued, it is not a fluffy thing. It is not a fluffy thing. It is a, I mean, if I was starting a company now, I'd spend a lot of time on that. And, you know, why we do what we do and why some things are tolerable and something, you know, what your fundamental beliefs are. And many people sort of zoom past that stage, right?" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "It's okay for a while until-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And never sacrifice that. You would never sacrifice that." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I don't think you can. So there was a lot of pressure when you took over as CEO and there was 22 consecutive quarters of revenue decline between 2012 and the summer of 2017. So it was a stressful time, maybe not. Maybe you can correct me on that. So as a CEO, what was it like going through that time? The decisions, the tensions in terms of investing" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "versus making a profit. I always felt that that sense of urgency was so high. And even if I was calm on the outside, because you have one of the world's largest pensions. So so many people depend on you. You have a huge workforce. They're depending on you. You have clients whose businesses don't run if you don't perform, et cetera. And shareholders, of course, right? And so, but I also am really clear. This was perhaps the largest reinvention IBM ever had to undertake. Had a board that understood that. In fact, some people, some of the headlines were like, this is existential, right? I mean, nobody gives you a right to exist forever. And there aren't many texts. You're the student of it. They are gone. They are all gone. And so if we didn't reinvent ourselves, we were going to be extinct. And so now, but you're big and it's like changing. What's that old saying? Can I change the wheels while the train's running or something like that? Or the engines while the plane's flying? And that's what you have to do. And that took time. And so, you know, Lex do I wish it would have been faster? Absolutely. But the team worked so hard and in my, in that timeframe, 50% of the portfolio was changed. It's a very large company. And if you would, I also divested $10 billion of businesses. So if you would look at that growth rate without divestitures in currency, which now today everyone talks about currency. Back then we were the only international guy. Net of divestitures in currency, the growth was flat. Is flat great? No, but flat for a big transformation. I was really proud of the team for what they did. That is actually pretty miraculous to have made it through that. I have my little nephew one day and he would see on TV occasionally when there'd be criticism and he'd say, you know, auntie, does that make you mad when they talk mean? Yeah. And I just looked at him and I said, you know, he says, how do you feel? I said, look, I'm doing what has to be done. And I happened to be the one there. And if you have great conviction, and I did, a great conviction, I knew it was the right thing. I knew it would be needed for IBM to live at second century. And so, and my successor, they have picked up, gone for, I mean, you go back, we did the acquisition of Red Hat. I mean, we had to find our way on cloud, right? We were late to it. So we had to find our way and eventually that led us to hybrid cloud. We had did a lot of work with Red Hat back in 2017. Oh, we'd always done a lot of work with them. Actually, we were one of the first investors when they were first formed. But that was 2018. You know, we took quite a hit for even, you know, oh, it was the largest to then software acquisition ever. But it is the foundation, right? Of what is our hybrid cloud play today and doing very, very well. So, but I had take a short term hit for that, right? Short term hit for a very large $34 billion acquisition. But for all of us, it was the right thing to do. So I think when you get really centered on," }, { "from": "human", "value": "you know it's the right thing to do, you just keep going. So the team had the vision, they had the belief" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "in everything else, the criticism doesn't matter. We didn't always have exactly the right, You know, this wasn't a straight arrow. But, stay down, you know you're right. Keep going, okay, made a mistake. You know, there's no bad mistake as long as you learn from it, right? And keep moving. So, yes, did it take longer," }, { "from": "human", "value": "but we are the largest that was there. Could you maybe just, on a small tangent, educate me a little bit. So, right had originally is Linux, Open Source, Distribution of Linux, but it's also consulting..." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's a little bit of consulting, but it's mostly software district, it's mostly Linux." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It was mostly software, yeah, absolutely. It's mostly Linux. It was mostly, absolutely, absolutely. So, but today IBM is very much, there's, you know. Services. Most IT services in the world is done by IBM. There's so many varied, so basically if you have issues, problems to solve in business, in the software space," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "IBM can help. Yes, and so in that my last year, our services business, we broke it into two pieces. And one piece was spun off into a company called Kindrel, which is managed outsourcing, keeping things running and they're off creating their own company. What IBM then retained is really the part I built with PWCC, the big consulting arm. And so today, the IBM of today in 2023 is, you know, or at least ending 2022, was 30% consulting and the other 70% would be, what would you consider software cloud AI? So hybrid cloud and AI is the other, and some hardware, obviously. Still, the mainframe is modernized, alive and kicking and still running some of the most important things every bank you can think of practically in the world. And so that is the IBM of today, versus perhaps, you know, and Red Hat is a big piece in an important part of that software portfolio. And they had some services with them for implementation, but it wasn't a very large part. And it's grown by leaps and bounds, you know, because originally the belief was everything was gonna go to the public cloud. And at least many people thought that way. We didn't, in fact, I mean, we tried, we procured a public cloud company, we really tried to work it, but what we found was a lot of the mission critical work, it was tuned for consumer world, it wasn't tuned for the enterprise. So then time is elapsing here though, and you gotta be at scale. And we didn't have any application, remember, we're not an application company. So it wasn't like we had an office, we didn't have anything that pulled things out to the cloud. And so as we looked for what our best, what we really, back to who you are, we really know mission critical work. We know where it lives today. And we know how to make it live on the cloud, which led us down hybrid cloud. You know that belief that the real world would turn into, there'll be things on traditional that'll never move, cause it doesn't make sense. There'll be private clouds for, you know, have all the benefit of the cloud, but they just don't have infinite expansion. And then there'll be public clouds. and you're gonna have to connect them and be secure. And that's what took us down the path" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "with Red Hat, that belief. The structure of that is fundamentally different than something that's consumer facing. So the lesson you learn there is you can't just" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "reuse something that's optimized for consumers. Very interesting point. It doesn't mean consumer companies can't move up into the enterprise, because obviously they have, right? But I think it's very hard to take something from the enterprise and come on down. Because it's gotta be simple, consumable," }, { "from": "human", "value": "all the things we talked about already. Plus you have to have the relationships with the enterprise." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah, very different, yeah, very different. Yeah, I mean, you know our history, right? At one time we had the PC business, and the short answer to why we would not do that is it's a consumer facing business. We were good at the enterprise, and that consumer business, A, highly competitive, gotta be low cost, all the things that are not the same muscles necessarily of being" }, { "from": "human", "value": "in an innovation driven technology business. Yeah, but what is now Lenovo, I guess, that's what just spent out. That's right, Lenovo acquired it. You're extremely good at that. So, but not as good as you're saying is at an enterprise," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "or it's not, it was a great thing to just spend out. Lenovo's very good at their PC world, yes, but I wouldn't, and they can sell into the enterprise. But you as a consumer can go buy Lenovo too. So look in China, right? Look in other places. So that's what I mean by consumer, you know, an end device. And that was a big decision, because it would have been one of the last things that had our logo on it that sits in your hands, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "So when a new generation says, well, what does IBM do, right? Was that a difficult decision?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Do you remember? Do you remember? This is a long time ago now, it's like 2005. So they're all difficult, because it's not only things as people, but it's back to knowing who you are is how I would sum that up as, right? And we were never great at making a lot of money at that. And you can remember, originally it was IBM PC, then there were IBM clones. They even called IBM clones back then, as the field became highly, highly competitive. And as things commoditized, we often, as they commoditize, we would move them out and move on to the next innovation level." }, { "from": "human", "value": "It was like 2005. Yeah. But because of that, it's not as public facing. That's right, that's absolutely right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Even though it's the most recognizable logos ever. Yeah, isn't it true? That is very true. That is actually a very important point. And that is branding, as you say, one of the most recognizable in a very highly ranked brand strength around the world. And so that's a trade-off. I mean, I can't, you know, because there was a time you'd have something of IBM in your home or a cash register as an example. You'd walk into a store, actually they're still in places." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That went to Toshiba. Can you speak to consulting a little bit? What does that entail to train up, to hire a workforce that can be of service to all kinds of different problems in a software space, in a tech space?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What's entailed in that, in a tech space? I mean, you have to value a different set of things, right? And so you've got to always stay ahead. It's about hiring people who are willing to learn. It is about, at the same time, in my view," }, { "from": "human", "value": "it's what really drives you to be customer-centric. Maybe you can educate me. I think consulting is a kind of, you roll in and you try to solve problems that businesses have, like with expertise, right? Okay." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Is that the process of consulting? Okay. Is that the process of consulting? Somewhat, right? So that's, okay, so fair enough. When you say that we're consulting, it's a really broad spectrum. I mean, I think people could be sitting here thinking it does any, it could be, I just give advice and I leave, to all the way to, I run your systems, right? And I think it's generally, people use the word to cover everything in that space. So we sort of fit in the spot, which is we would come in and live at that intersection of business and technology. So yeah, we could give you recommendations, and then we'd implement them and see them through because we had the technology to go to the implementation and see them through. And at the time back then, that's what, you know, there'd been five of those that had failed that the companies had bought other consulting firms. And so we were, okay, that was the great thing about, I mean, the harrowing thing about it was, here, please go work on this. None of the others have ever succeeded before. And yet on the other hand, the great promise was you could really, clients were dying at that time when we were doing that to get more value out of their technology and have it really change the way the business worked. So I think of it as how to improve business and apply technology and see it all the way through. That's what we do today still." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, the see it all the way through, yes. So let me say it's almost like a personal question. So that was a big thing you were a part of that you led in 2002 that you championed and helped, I should say, negotiate the purchase of Monday, the consulting arm of PricewaterhouseCoopers for $3.5 billion. So what were some of the challenges of that" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that you remember, personal and business? At that time, PW really had to divest. And so they were in parallel going to IPO, right? So we sort of swept in at that point and said, and we'd been thinking about it a long time and started to work on that as an acquisition. So kind of balancing which way would they go, IPO or acquisition. And so the challenges are obvious and part of it's why they went with us as an acquisition. Big difference to be a private firm than a public firm. Very big, I can remember one of the guys, he asked somebody how long you've been with IBM and the person answered 143 quarters. Okay, that's a little enlightening about a business model, right? So we had the challenges of being private versus public. You have the challenge of when you acquire something like that, as I say, you acquire hearts, not parts. They could leave. I mean, you could destroy your value by them leaving. They can walk right out the door. I mean, yes, you can put lots of restraints but still that you had there. And then we had to really build a new business model that people and clients would see as valuable and be willing to pay for. And so we had to do something that lived at that intersection and say that how this was unique is what we were doing. So you had the people aspect, you had that they were gonna be private and they had, or public, and they had always been private their whole life. And then you had the business model. So, and the others had all failed that had tried to do this." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "So yeah, it was a tough thing to do. Okay, that's a little enlightening about a business model. What about the personal side of that? That was a big leap, step up for you. You've been at IBM for a long time. This is a big sort of leadership, like very impactful, large scale leadership decisions." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What was that like? So, unlike in my career earlier where I said I was changing jobs, I said I wasn't comfortable, et cetera. So now here, fast forward 10 years, and I'm like, okay. Honestly, how I felt inside, on one hand, I did what I learned, like inventory, which you know how to do. Like you have some good strengths that could work here. The other part of me said, boy, this is a really high profile. And I felt, and I can remember saying to someone, like this is gonna kill me or catapult." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Probably nothing in between. And that wasn't terrifying to you. That was okay. You're okay with that kind of pressure." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I was okay with that because I felt, I knew enough, you know, like these things I had, and I'll tell you one thing I felt I knew the best. Consultants of any, worth their weight, they really do care that they deliver for an end client. And I felt I understood service to a client so well that what it meant to really provide value. So I knew we would have like something that I knew the PwC people more than anything wanted to deliver value to those clients they had. Next to them developing their people, that those were like the really two things and that I could. And I also knew they felt they could do better if they had more technology and we did. So there really was a reason, you know, that I could really believe in. So I authentically believed back to that point. And I also felt I had built some of those skills to be able to do that. But I wouldn't call it terrifying, but make no mistake, Lex, it was very hard. And it was, it turned out to be extremely successful. By the time we ended, it was worth 19 a half, well at the time I stepped, I ran it for, oh goodness gracious, quite a long time. I'm gonna say seven or eight, nine years. And we were 19 and a half billion dollars. It made 2.7 billion in profit. It was very consequential to IBM. But the fact that it was consequential is also very, I mean, there was a time as we moved through it, I can even remember it. We just weren't meeting the goals as fast as we should. And some of it was clients were like, oh, now you're IBM. So it means some things, I knew what happened, but they happened so much faster. It'd be things like clients would say, oh IBM cares about a quarter, so let's negotiate every quarter on these prices. And, you know, when they were private, they didn't have these issues. Well that had an impact on margins really fast. And so that ability- So you picked up a lot of challenges. You pick them up right away and I thought, oh boy. I mean, if I don't get this turned around, this is really a problem. And the team learned a lot of lessons. I mean, I learned people, I had to move out, that I learned that when people don't believe they can do something, they probably won't do it. So we wanted to run the business at a certain level. I really did have some great leaders, but they didn't really believe it could do that. And I finally had to come to terms with, if you don't really believe in something, you really aren't gonna probably make it happen at the end of the day. And so we would change that. We would have to actually get some more help to help us on doing so. But then it turned. And I can remember the day that we started really getting the business to hum and start to, it was almost like, finally! And I gave the team this little plaque, this little kind of corny paperweight thing. And I'm gonna believe it. Remember it was Thomas Edison. And he said, many of life's greatest failures are people who gave up right before they were going to be successful. And it's so true. I mean, there was also a governor of Texas who's passed, but she had said, someone said, what's the secret of your success? And she said, it's passion and perseverance when everyone else would have given up. And I feel that's what that taught me. That taught me, no matter how bad this gets, you are not giving up. Now you can't keep doing the same thing, like the doctor, this hurts, oh, then stop doing it. You can't keep doing the same thing. We had to keep changing till we found our right way to get the model to work right. And client work, we never, never had an issue and kept so many of the people. And now we are 25 years almost later. And a number of them run parts of the IBM business still today. So it's that old Maya Angelo saying, when you say, what do I remember? They'll say, you won't remember the specifics of this, but you'll remember how you felt. And that's kind of how I feel. And I think they do too. The whole team does of that. Like I'll get anniversary notes still on that. When you've been through something like that" }, { "from": "human", "value": "together with people, that ability. So you picked up a lot of challenges. Finally. So during the acquisition, the way you knew the people, it's the right team are the ones that could believe that this consulting business can grow," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "can integrate within IBM and all of that. Business can grow, can integrate. Yeah, I was lucky. Look, I did things that helped that. I mean, I knew that people joining us would feel more comfortable if they had people leading it, that they recognized, et cetera. But again, I learned those that didn't then, I eventually had to take some action out. But PWCC had a lot of really dedicated leaders to it." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "And I give them a lot of credit. Well, it's amazing to see a thing that kind of start at that very stressful time. And then it turns out to be a success. That's just beautiful to see. So what about the acquisition itself? Is there something interesting to say about the, like what you learned about maybe negotiation?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Because there's a lot of money involved too. Yeah, to me it was a win-win. And we both actually cared the customers got value. So there was this like third thing that had a benefit, not them, not a, there was this third thing. And then next to that." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I like how you think that people would have the wisdom or what it takes to have great negotiation. But yeah, so it's a win-win is one of the ways you can have success." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But it's like obvious, Stephen say that, right? I mean, if you can back to being in service of something, we were both in service to clients. So in and then, you know, I always say when you have an negotiation with someone, okay, both parties always kind of walk away a little bit. Okay, that's good. If they both walk away going, I should have got a little bit more. Okay, but it's okay if I struggling. Okay, they're both a little, little fussy. When one walks away and thinks they did great and the other did horrible, they usually like borne bad. I mean, because they never worked that way. And I've always felt that way with negotiations that you push too far down," }, { "from": "human", "value": "you usually will be sorry you did that. So don't push too far. I mean, that's ultimately what collaboration and empathy means is you're interested in long-term success" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "of everybody together versus like yours short term. And then you get the discretionary energy from them" }, { "from": "human", "value": "versus like, okay, you screwed me here, I'm done, right? So let's even rewind even back." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, no, oh no." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So do you feel like this is a nostalgia interview? So let me just ask the romantic question. What did you love most about engineering, computer science, electrical engineering? So in those early days," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "from your degree to the early work of the market. I love that logic part of it, right? And you do get a sense of completion at some point when you reach certain milestones that, you know, like, yes, it worked or yes, you know, that finite answer to that. So that's what I learned about it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I loved the problem-solving of it. Computing, what led you down that path? With computing in general," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "what made you fall in love with computing in engineering? It's probably that back to that desire why? You know, how things work, right? And so that's like a natural thing, you know, math. I love math for that reason. I always wanted to study, how did that, you know, how did it get that to work kind of thing? So it goes back in that time. But I did start, what I started at Northwestern, I wasn't, I was already in the engineering school. But my first thought was to be a doctor. That was far more noble, that I should be a medical doctor until I could not pass human reproduction as a course. And I thought the irony that I could not, I'm like, I've got all these colored pencils, I gotta get these pictures, this is not working out for me. I'm gonna stick to math. It was the only course in my four year college education I had to take pass or fail, otherwise I risked pinching my grade point average." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Engineering, it is, so what I- I'm like, I've got all these colored pencils, I've gotta get these working out for me. I'm gonna stick to math, engineering, it is. So, but after about 10 years, you jumped from the technical role of systems engineer to a management, to a leadership role. Did you miss at that time, the sort of the technical direct contribution" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "versus being a leader, a manager? That's an interesting point. Like I said, I've always been sort of a doer leader, you know, so. So you never lost that. I never really did. Even, you know, and I think this is really important for today, the best way people learn is experientially, I think. That's being a generalization because there are people who can learn all different ways, right? So I've done things like with my whole team," }, { "from": "human", "value": "they all had to learn how to build cloud applications." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I never really didn't call the code off. And so, you know, I don't care what your job is, write code, you know? And I remember when we were trying to get the company understand AI, we did something called a cognitive jam. Okay, there's a reason we picked the word cognitive by the way, instead of AI, today we use the word AI. It was really symbolic. It was to mean this is to help you think, not replace your thinking. There was so much in the zeitgeist about AI being a bad thing at that time. So that was why we picked a mouthful of a word like cognitive. And it was like, no, no, this is to help you actually. So do what, you know, do what you do better or do something you haven't yet learned. And we did something called the cognitive jam. But the whole point was everyone the company could volunteer, get on a team. You either had to build something that improved to one of our products or did something for a client or did a self-social issue with AI. And again, this goes back now, 10 years, and people did things from bullying applications to railroad stuff to whatever it was, but it got like 100,000 people to understand viscerally what is AI. So that's a long answer to my belief around experiential. And so do you ever give it up? I don't think so, because I actually think that's pretty good to get your hands dirty in something. Now you can't do it, you know, depending on what you're doing, your effort to do that will be less, but-" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "So even as CEO, you try to- Always." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Get your hands dirty a little bit. Chat GPT, I've played, I mean, you still- Yellow. I'm not saying I'm any good at any of it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, yellow, yeah. You know, anymore, but-" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "But to build up in tuition to build up in the state. Yeah, it's that to really understand, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "And not be afraid of. Yeah. Like we mentioned at the beginning, IBM research has helped catalyze some of the biggest accomplishments in computing and artificial intelligence history. So D-Blue, IBM D-Blue versus Kasparov chess match in 96 and 97, just to ask kind of like what your perception is, what your memory is of it. What is that moment? Like this seminal moment, I believe probably one of the greatest moments in AI history, when the machine first beat a human at a thing," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the humans, machine first, the humans thought- You make a very interesting point, because it is like one of the first demonstrations of using a game to like bring something to people's consciousness, right? And to this day, people use games, right? To demonstrate different things. But at the time, it's funny. I didn't necessarily think of it so much as AI, and I'll tell you why. I was, and I'm not a chess player, you might be a chess player, so I'm not an expert at it. But I think I understand properly of chess, that chess has got a finite number of moves that can be made. Therefore, if it's finite, really what's the demonstration of a supercomputing, right? It's about the amount of time and how fast it can crunch through to find the right move. So in some ways, I thought of it as almost a bigger demonstration of that, but it is absolutely as you said, it was a motivator, one of the big milestones of AI, because it put in your consciousness that it's man in this other machine, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I'm doing something, I'm doing something. So you saw it as just a challenging competition problem, and this is a way to demonstrate hardware and software computation at its best. Yes, I did. But the thing is, there is a romantic notion that chess is the embodiment of human intellect. And the intelligence that you can't build a machine that can beat a chess champion in chess" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and the fact that it did. So now it's just a computation problem." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Well that's probably required to not be paralyzed the immensity of the task so that this is just solvable but it was a very, very, I think that was a powerful moment just speaking just as an AI person that was that reinvigorated the dream." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You were a little kid back then though right? At that at 95? You have to be like, were you remember it actually at the moment? Yeah, yeah. What did you think at the moment about it?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "You have to remember it actually at the moment? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was awe inspiring because especially sort of growing up in the Soviet Union, you think especially of Khair Kasparov and chess, like your intuition is weak about those things. I didn't see it as computation. I thought of it as intelligence because chess for a human being doesn't feel like computation. It feels like some complicated relationship between memory and patterns and intuition and guts and instinct and all of those. If you watch someone play, that's what you would conclude, right? So to see a machine be able to beat a human, I mean you get a little bit of that with Chagipiti now. It's like language was to us humans, the thing that we kind of and surely the poetry of language is something only humans can really have. It's going to be" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "very difficult to replicate the magic of- Yeah, if you watch someone play, that's what you would" }, { "from": "human", "value": "conclude, right? A natural language without deeply understanding language. But it seems like Chagipiti can do some incredible things with language in natural language dialogue. So, but that was the first moment in AI through all the AI winters from the 60s of the promise of the, it was, wow, this is possible for a simple set of algorithms to accomplish something that we think of as intelligence. So that was truly inspiring that maybe intelligence, maybe the human mind is just algorithms. That was the thought at the time. And of course, now the funny thing, what happens is the moment you accomplish it, everyone says, oh, it's just brute force algorithms. It's silly. And this continues every single time you pass a benchmark, a threshold to win a game, people say, oh, well, it's just this. It's just this. It's just this. And that, I think that's funny. And there's going to be a moment when we're going to have to contend with AI systems that exhibit human-like emotions and feelings. And you have to start to have some difficult discussions about, well, how do we treat those beings? And what role do they have in society? What are the rules around that? And this is really exciting because that also puts a mirror to ourselves to see, okay, what's the right way to treat each other as human beings? Because it's a good test for that." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's just this. It is because I always say it's a reflection of humanity. But I mean, it's taught by what, man, bad stuff in the past, you'll teach it bad stuff for the future, which is why I think efforts to regulate it are a fool's errand. You need to regulate uses, because it's not that technology itself is not inherently good or bad, but how it's used or taught can be good or bad for sure, right? And so that's, to me, will unveil now a whole different way of having to look at technology." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah. What about another magical leap with the early days of Watsonwood beating the Jeopardy challenge? What was your experience like with Watson? What's your vision for Watson in general?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. And it was really inspired by first chess, right? And Casbroff, and then you come forward in time. And I think what Watson did, because you used a really important word, AI had kind of waxed and waned in these winners, right? In and out, in and out. Popular or not, more money, less money, in and out. Confidence, no confidence. And so I think that was one of the first times it brought to the forefront of people like, whoa, like it humanized it. Because here it is playing against these two gentlemen, and you did lose it first, and then finally won at the end of the day. And what it was doing is making you say, hey, natural language, it's actually understanding natural language. It's one of the first demonstrations of natural language support and a bit of reasoning over lots of data, right? And so that it could have access to a lot of things, come up with a conclusion on it. And to me, that was a really big moment. And I do think it brought to the conscious of the public, and in good ways and bad, because it probably set expectations very high of like, whoa, what this could be. And I still do believe that it has got the ability to change and help us, man, make better decisions, that so many decisions are not optimal in this world, even medical decisions. And it's right or wrong, what took us down a path of healthcare first with our AI. And we took many pivots, and I think there's a really valuable lesson in what we learned. One is that I actually don't think the challenges are the technology. Yes, those are challenges, but the challenges are the people challenges around this, right? So do people trust it? How will they use it? I mean, I saw that straight up with the doctors and like, meaning they're so busy in the way they've been taught to do something. Do they really have time to learn another way? I saw it was a mistake when you put it on top of processes, it didn't change, kind of like paving a cow path. Didn't work. I mean, it was all human change management around it that were really its biggest challenges. And another valuable lesson we picked back to usage, you think of IBM as moonshops, we picked really hard problems to start with. I think you see a lot of technology now starts with really simple problems. And by that, it probably starts to build trust because I start little, it's like, Oh, I'm not ready to, you know, outsource my diagnosis to you, but I'll get some information here about a test question. So very different thinking. So a lot of things to learn, we were making a market at the time. And when you make a market, you know, choice of problem you work on gets to be very important when you're catching up, well, then it's a scale game. So very different thing. And so, but Watson proved, I think, I mean, I hope I'm not being too, I think Watson brought AI back out of winter for the world. And that since then, there's just been, you know, one company after another and innovations and people working on it. And I have no regrets of anything that we did, we learned so much, and we probably rebuilt it many times over, it made it more modular. And today, to IBM, a Watson is more about AI inside of a lot of things, if you think of it that way, which is more like an ingredient versus it's a thing in and of itself. And I think that's how it will bring its real value, you know, more as an ingredient, and it's so badly needed. And even back then, the issue was so much data, like, What do you ever do it? You can't get through it, you can't use it for anything, you know this well, it's your profession. So we have to have it. So that's a" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that's going to propel it forward. So as part of the suite of tools that you use when you go to" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to enterprise and you try to solve different problems. AI for security, AI in automated operations, AI in your robotics, AI on your factory. You know what I mean? It's all part of, and I think, and that's why even to this day, I mean, thousands and thousands of clients of IBM still have the Watson components that it's the AI being used. So it became a platform is how I would say it, right? And an ingredient that went inside, and consultants, like you said, had to learn. I had, they had to learn, don't just put it on something. You got to rethink how that thing should work because with the AI, it could work entirely differently. And so I also felt it could open up and still will open up jobs to a lot of people because more like an assistant, and it could help me be qualified to do something. And we even years ago saw this with the French banks, very unionized, but that idea that you could, in this case, the unions voted for it because it felt people did a better job. And so, and that's just part about being really dedicated" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to help it help humanity, not destroy it. Speaking of which, a funny side note, so Kubrick's, the 2001 Space Odyssey, what do you think about, you know," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the fact that HAL 9000 was named after IBM, 2001 Space Odyssey? I really don't think it was. I know there's, I really don't. It could be more fake news. It's more fake news. I have done, I've like researched this, tried to find any evidence and people have talked to you. It wasn't really one letter, it was one letter off." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "Off right? I don't think so. I really don't. It could be more fake news. One letter off. So people don't know H is one letter off of I." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "A is one letter off of B and then L is one letter off of A is one letter off of. I think that's a solution found afterwards. But here's what I think it more was, I do think it's one of the early demonstrations of evil AI. Yeah." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Like can be taught bad. Yeah. because it's presented as evil in the movie because it hurts, the AI hurts people. But it's a really interesting ethical question because the role of HAL 9000 is to carry out a successful mission. And so the question that is a human question, it's not an AI question, at what price? Humans wage war, they pay very heavy costs for a vision, for a goal of a future that creates a better world. And so that's the question certainly in space. Doctors ask that question all the time, under limited resources could allocate my time" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and money and efforts. I agree. Like I said, I've spent a decade talking about this question of AI ethics, right? And that it needs really considerable, not just attention because otherwise it will mirror everything we love and everything we don't love. And again, and that's the beauty in the eye of a holder, right, depending on your culture and everything else. With what you're doing and what you're gonna do, how do you think about it? Do you think about the AI you're going to develop" }, { "from": "human", "value": "as having guardrails dictated by some of your beliefs or? Yeah, for sure. So there's so many interesting ways to do this the right way and I don't think anyone has an answer. I tend to believe that transparency is really important. So I think some aspect of your work should be open sourced or at least have an open source competitor that creates kind of forcing function for transparency of how you do things. So the other is I tend to believe, maybe it's because of the podcast and I've just talked to a lot of people," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "you should know the people involved." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I agree 100%. As opposed to hide behind a company wall. Sometimes there's a pressure, you have a PR team and you have to care for investors and discussions and so on, let's protect, let's surely not tweet, no, it's like you form this bubble where you have incredible engineers doing fascinating work and also doing work that's difficult complex human questions being answered and we don't know about any of them as a society and so we can't really have that conversation. Even though that conversation would be great for hiring, it would be great for revealing the complexities of what the company is facing. So when the company makes mistakes, you understand that it wasn't a malevolence or half-assideness and the decision-making is just a really hard problem. And so I think transparency is just good for everybody. And I mean, in general, just having a lot of public conversations about this is serious stuff. That AI will have a transformative impact on our society and it might do so very, very quickly through all kinds of ways we're not expecting, which is social media recommendation systems. They at scale have impact on the way we think, on the way we consume news and our growth, like the kind of stuff we consume to grow and learn and become better human beings, all of that. That's all AI. And then obviously the tools that run companies in which we depend, the infrastructure in which we depend, we need to know all about those AI decisions. And it's not as simple as, well, we don't want the AI to say these specific set of bad things. Unfortunately, I don't believe it's possible to prevent evil or bad things by creating a set of cold mathematical rules. Unfortunately, it's all fuzzy and gray areas." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's all a giant mess. It is, I mean, you think about it like a knife. A knife can do good and a knife can do bad, okay? You can't, it's very hard. Can't ban knives. You can't ban knives. And that this is, I think back, it was probably 20, I don't know, 15, 16. We did principles of trust and transparency. Notice the word transparency. That belief that with AI, it should be explainable. You should know who taught it. You should know the data that went into training it. You should know how it was written. If it's being used, you have a right to know these things. And I think those are pretty, to this day, really powerful principles to be followed, right? And part of it, we ended up writing because here we were when we were working on, particularly healthcare, like, okay, you care who trained it in what? And where did, and that's sort of, that comes to your mind and you're like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense for something important like that. But it just, in general, people won't trust the technologies, I don't think, unless they have transparency into those things." }, { "from": "human", "value": "In the end, they won't really trust it. I think a lot of people would like to know, sort of, because a lot of us, I certainly do suffer from imposter syndrome, that self-critical brain. So, you know, taking that big step into leadership, did you at times suffer from imposter syndrome? Like, how did I get here? Do I really belong here? Or did you, were you able to summon the courage" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and sort of the confidence to really step up? I think that's very natural for someone. Like, no matter, like the bigger the job gets, you turn and you look to the left and the right and you see people around you and you think, what am I doing here, right? But then you remember what you do. And there's no one else doing it. And so, you get that confidence. So, I do hear a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome, right, and I kind of, actually this past year, I've spent some time helping people on that topic. And part of it starts with, you have to believe you, you have a right to be there like anyone else does, if you've prepared for that moment, you know? And so, it's a bit more of a, I know it's hard to say, like a confidence thing more than anything else. So, yes, there are times I look around, but then I think, wow, I'm in a position to make something change. So, I can't say I have ever really dwelled" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "on that feeling for long. Okay, so you just focused on the work, I have an opportunity, I'm gonna start popping in." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You know, it's good or bad, you know, it's good or bad," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I just focus on the work, yeah, good or bad, yeah. One important lesson you said you learned from your mom is never let anyone else define you, only you define who you are. So, what's the trajectory, let's say, of your self-definition journey, of you discovering who you are, from having that very difficult upbringing?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "You know, they say pivotal moments happen and you don't realize it when they're happening. So, most of my, I feel like most of my self-discovery, it's been like something happens in a year or two or some number later, I look back on it and say, you know, I learned this from that. It's like not in the moment always with me. That could just be how I am. So, I feel like it's been know yourself is a good thing, right, I haven't actually heard you say that on a different podcast, when you ask people questions, you're like, well, it depends, you know, like, know yourself a bit, right?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "You know? I tend to know who you are though. There's a lot of things like you said, Nick, for me, there's moods when you're super-self critical, sometimes you're super-confident, and there's many, sometimes you're emotional, sometimes you're cool under pressure. All those are the same human being. Yeah, and I think that's fine. Self-awareness? Yeah, and I think that's fine. That's different. Was there societal expectations and norms regarding gender that you felt in your career? You've spoken to that a little bit, but was there some aspect of that that was constraining," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "empowering, or both? You know, I chose to never look at it, okay? Now, whether that is right or wrong, and again, I'm a product of the 70s, and 70s and the 80s, where I think I was surrounded, all the other women around me viewed our way to get ahead was just to work hard. Work hard, work hard, and that was the way you differentiated yourself. And that's obvious it did help. I mean, there's no doubt about it. You're always, you know, you've learned a lot of things, which qualified, opened up another door, opened up another door. I'm very remindful that I have worked for companies that are very steeped in those values of equal opportunity. And so nothing remarkable about that. I mean, when I was a wee kid, I'm taught, hire a diverse team. I get evaluated for it. I get evaluated if my team has built up their skills. So this is, you know, when you're really formative, you're in a culture that that's what it's valuing, right? So it becomes part of you. So I say sometimes to Chagrin, did I ever feel I was held back for that reason? Now, were there plenty of times when, you know, I write about a few stories in the book, I'm laying cables at night and the guys are at the bar. Now, I didn't really want to go with them to the bar anyways. They'd be like, we'll be back to get you, you know, bye. And I'm like, okay, I mean, I learned a lot. So it didn't. Now, all that said back to my earlier story about being a role model, you know, it would be foolish to not believe that there were times that that mattered. And I would say two things, even not that long ago, you know, a colleague called me and I was talking about media and about women CEOs and said, do you notice that sometimes when it's woman CEO, they call the person by name. And when it's a man, they call the company out, not the person's name exactly associated with the issue. And I said, Yeah, well, I think you have to just understand much of what you do, it will be magnified, because there are so few of you. And sometimes it will be, you know, really can be blown out of proportion, right? And so that can happen. And you got to learn which in which way. Now, all that said, on gender, it is an interesting thing with the book, as I've talked to, you know, having a book, it is one of my best friends, the first reaction is, I can't wait for my daughter" }, { "from": "human", "value": "to read it. I say, Well, that's interesting. Do you think you could read it? Oh, yes, fascinating." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It's an interesting reaction. And as here I am 40 years later, that's an interesting reaction, right? And I say, No, the book, I really worked hard to write it for everyone. I just happened to be a woman, right? But there's still that there. And so, look, until I think people see and never feel that they have a, it doesn't even matter whether a woman could be another diverse group that feels it. It's okay to ask those questions. And that's why actually, I'm okay talking about it. Because there were times I felt it, right? There were times in my life on my looks or my weight or my clothing or endless numbers of things that people would comment on, that they would not have commented on if it was someone else. Now, on the other hand, when there's so few of you, and, you know, in there's good and bad, I mean, there's benefit to that too, right? If you do good work, you'll be recognized, it's easier to be recognized. And so, a prone icon. And I think I've just, you know, grown up believing, like my advice to young women, going to engineering, not because you're gonna be an engineer, it teaches you to solve problems. And anything you job you do is going to be solving problems. Things like that, or what I" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "take away from that, in that journey. It is interesting that, you know, I hear from women that, even on this podcast, when I talk to incredible women like yourself, it is inspiring to young women to hear. I mean, you like to see, you talk to somebody from Turkey and then Turkish people all get excited. It's so true. So you get like somebody that looks like you, somebody that in the category could be tiny or it can be huge. That's just the reality of the world." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "It is the reality of the world. And the work I do now to put this group called 110, put 1 million black employees into the middle class without college degrees, get them the right skills, upwardly mobile jobs. So one of my last years, we had been working on, it just did regular leadership session at IBM and had our black colleagues. We're talking about what did it feel like to be a black leader. And here, these are extremely accomplished people. And I can remember very well one telling a story about, look, I felt if I failed or succeeded, it's not just me. It came from a country in Africa. I felt like the whole country is on my shoulder, my success or failure. That's a burden. I mean, I don't feel that burden. Not true. As a woman CEO, I did feel like even the headlines when I was named said, her appointment will either, her success or failure will be a statement for the whole gender kind of thing. And I didn't dwell on it, but I could see how people, like you said, it could be a small group, could be whatever. And so that is a lot of pressure on people and they need role models. You are a role model for people. Look at what you're able to do. You do these podcasts, you understand your science very well, you're very well prepared, your ability to translate it to people. That's not an insignificant thing. And you may think, oh, is that about the power of me? Not really, right? And you obviously believe you don't do this because you just like sitting at a microphone. You do it because you think, okay, if I can get people to say things that are really valuable to other people, they're going to learn something. I assume that is, I mean, you never told me my interpretation is that's why you do this podcast, that you feel like in service of other people, that you can bring them something unique by the way you do this. Now I should ask you, why do you do it? That's my impression." }, { "from": "human", "value": "By the way, can I just comment on the fact that you keep asking really hard questions? I'm really honored by it. As a fan of a podcast myself, what I hope is to talk to people like you and to show that you are a fascinating and beautiful human being outside of your actual accomplishments also. So sometimes people are very focused on very specific things about, like you said, science, like what the actual work is, whether it's nuclear fusion or it's GI GPT. I just want to show that it's because I see it at MIT and everywhere. It's just human beings trying their best, they're flawed, but just realizing that all of these very well accomplished people are all the same. And then so then regular people, the young people, they're able to see, I can do this too, I can have a very big impact. Yeah, exactly. It's like we're all kind of plasters. We're all trying to figure out. Do a certain degree. So let me just ask you about family. You wrote that my family still jokes that the reason I never had children on my own was because I had already raised my family. They're right. So this is" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "talking to you upbringing, but in general, what was your also?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "You know, leading a giant company, what was the right place to find a work-life balance for you to have time for family, have time for away from work and be successful?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. So I had to learn that. And I might've said, you know, you're the only one that can determine your own work-life balance. Companies are innate things. I mean, they will take everything they can from you. And it's not a bad thing. They just will as will bosses. I mean, you give it, they'll take it. And when people ask for, you know, I need roof, I'm like, okay, I had to come with terms with the criminal was me. If I needed that balance, I had to set those boundaries. And so when I comment about a family, because I am in extreme awe of people with children who work, it is a extremely hard thing to do. I watch my siblings. I love my nieces and nephews. You know, the emotional, their pain is your pain every minute of a day. And then you still have a job on top of it. And so when my mom had to go back to school and had to work, I was the one. And so when she couldn't go to the teacher meeting, I went to the teacher meeting when, and so in some ways, and there's an age gap between my brother and I and my other two sisters. And so I'm still they they still call me Mama Bear, even I mean, I was extremely protective of all of them. And it is as if I had raised them. And my mom did a great job raising them, I didn't I bet I was there. And so when it came time to have children, my husband came from a family where his father died and was raised by a single mother, very, very similar, end point, different reasons why he ended up, you know, his father not abandon them. And I don't want people to believe to do my job, you can have no children. That is not right. I know other great women CEOs, Marilyn Houston, who ran Lockheed Martin, extremely technical company, Mary Barra, who runs General Motors, Ellen Coleman, who run DuPont, these are all my friends to this day. And they've been fantastic mothers and husbands, good parents, right. And so I talked about it because it was a choice we made. And so, you know, we both felt, look, we'd reached a point where for his reasons, what he had to do, I'd already felt that way. And that we were comfortable just being great aunts and uncles. And I'm a great aunt, you know, I like to think that for my little guys and I'll end up older now, but lots of them. And there's no doubt though, the choices we made, Mark and I, that that made it easier for me to focus on work. I mean, that's just math, you know, when you've got less people to have to take care of. And so I'm very considerate of that. And I think much of it informed many of the policies I put into because I had such great empathy for those who then still had these other responsibilities. And I desperately wanted them all to stay in the workforce. So I can remember, and my siblings have been more successful than I, by the way, I mean, to my mother's credit. And my one sister who, you know, went to Northwestern, has an MBA, built some of the most sophisticated systems. She spent her whole career at Accenture and just recently retired as a chief executive of all of consulting. But at one point, she took off time to spend with her family and then went to go back to work. She's talking to me and she's like, I don't know if I should go back to work, you know, maybe life's path, you know, technology goes so fast, it's been a few years. I'm sitting there like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you know, look at her credentials, they're far outstanding. I'm like, and I thought to myself, like ding, one of those moments, if my own sister feels that way with all her credentials, I'll bet I went back to work the next day and I said, hey, pull for me, all the people who've left for parental reasons, and or whatever family reasons, and didn't come back. And it began a program of return ships. And I can't tell you how many in men and women was because they didn't feel confident to come back. They thought technology passed them by. Okay, we said it's three months, you can stay one month, three months, doesn't matter. Well, a lot of people like one day, they're like, you're right, not that much happened. It happened, but I caught up. I actually know more than I think, you know, and, and I, so actually no more than I think, you know, and it was a long answer to your question about, I didn't, but I am so empathetic. And I am in awe of what they are able to do. So, and it made me then I think more empathetic to the policies and the like, around that topic," } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "so you could keep great people in the workforce. So you mentioned your friends with Mayor Barra, the CEO of GM. I didn't mean to name drop. So don't I love her. She's amazing. So I just wanted" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "to I'm just curious. I didn't mean to name drop. Oh, I love her. She should do your podcast. We'll, we'll make it happen. A great leader. I always, I tell Mary what I think of her is," }, { "from": "human", "value": "I think she's one of the most authentic leaders out there. Most authentic. I always" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "just very different companies, huge challenges. I worked there first. I remember I worked there first, I remember, right. So I'm very, you know, in some ways I'm very beholden, right. You know, I'm very appreciative of what they did. I mean, Mary and I are circa the same, well, I'm a bit older. So but circa that genre. Do you exchange wisdoms? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Oh yeah, yeah, when you do anything hard, it takes time and perseverance like we talked about. And you can get that, where do you get the fuel for it? You can either get it from your attitude, or you can get it from your network or your relationships. And I'm a firm believer relationships are from what you give, not what you get. Meaning you give, trust me, they will come back at the time they need to come back to you at these moments in life. If you focus on how can I bring Lex value? There'll be a day I need Lex, he will be back. And so to those women, to me, relationships are not transactional. And it's a proof that to this day, even though I'm no longer still active as a CEO, these are all still my friends. And they're, we are friends, all of us. And I can remember some of them, when I first became a CEO, calling me and saying, hey, it's a little lonely here, so let me talk to you. And then when they became, I did the same for them. And then they remember, and they do it for the next generation. And so it's very supportive, almost to a T, any of the women you could name who have been CEOs, I would say, almost to a T, have all been very supportive. In fact, a number of us work on a little, another non-for-profit right now called Journey, which some women who had started the Fortune's most powerful women had started, which was, could we get more women, particularly diverse women, but women in general, to more quickly be into positions of leadership and power. And so many of the women you named and more, we all dedicate time mentoring in kind of creating this little group" }, { "from": "human", "value": "of fellows every year to do this. Friendship and love is core to this whole thing, not just to success, but just to the whole human condition. Let me ask one last question. Advice for young people. You've had a difficult upbringing, a difficult life, and you've become one of the most successful human beings in history. What advice would you give to young people, or just people in general who are struggling a bit, trying to figure out how they can have a career" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "they can be proud of, or maybe a life they can be proud of? I feel like a life you can be proud of is just one if you leave something a little bit better. It doesn't have to be big, you know? That's a life well-lived, right? It was Churchill who said, we may, it was how you might remember it better than I, you make a living by what you get, and you live a life by what you give, something to that effect. But my advice would probably, when I'm asked this, I would tell them to ask more questions and give answers. Just focus on being a sponge, and it's funny. I asked my husband the same question the other day. I said, hey, we were talking to somebody, and people were asking this, and he sort of paused for a while, and he said, I tell them patience. I said, what do you mean? And he said, I see so many young people, like they're in such a hurry to somewhere, I don't know where, and that, if they just had patience and let life unfold, I think they may be surprised where they ended up, And actually, I think that's a really good answer," }, { "from": "human", "value": "to be honest, to be honest. Along the way, keep asking questions, keep that childlike curiosity. I know it sounds so easy to say, it's just so, you know. Yeah, like you said, the obvious things, I think they tend to be the most profound. Jeanie, you're an incredible human being, you're an inspiration to so many. Thank you for helping run and contribute to one of the great companies that brings so much good power to the world. And thank you for putting in the hard work of putting it all in the great book. And thank you for talking today. This is a huge honor." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Thank you for doing it. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for doing it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Oh, you did a lovely job. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jeanie Rometti. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Eleanor Roosevelt. Do what you feel in your heart to be right, for you'll be criticized either way. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "This meat vehicle that operates with other meat vehicles in meat space and does interesting things and is worried and is hopeful and is ecstatic sometimes, sometimes is afraid. And at the end of the day, the ride ends too quickly for that meat bag that I guess others call Lex, but I don't even know what I call myself in my own head. How am I even talking to you right now? What is this? A bunch of cells, neurons, are firing, creating a thought, creating an experience of a thought, allow me in a meta way to discuss the experience of a thought, and here we are. And I'm speaking in a technology build by humans, alone in a room, but you, another human, are now listening to this." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What is this?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "What is this? Anyway, if you want to get a little data on this giant mystery, this beautiful mystery that is the biology of our human body, you should use InsideTracker and you can get special savings for a limited time and you go to InsideTracker.com slash Lex. This show is also brought to you by Athletic Greens and it's AG1 drink, which is an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. I take it twice a day. I take it after a run, a long run in the now warm Texas weather, slowly getting ready for that Texas heat. I mean, I love those long runs along the river, anywhere I go. Just long runs alone with my thoughts when I'm listening to Brown Noise or an audiobook. That just takes me away. It takes me away for an hour or two or three, depending on how long the run is. It's just I'm in a different world and when I come back into this world, the first entry point is an Athletic Greens drink. Sometimes I'll put it in the fridge and then take a quick shower and drink it cold. It's delicious either way, warm, cold, doesn't matter. Just put a little powder with some water. It's magic. And I also, when I travel, I take it, it gives me that feeling that I've got in my life in order, at least for the nutritional stuff. They'll give you one month supply of fish oil when you sign up at athleticgreens.com slash Lex. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Aaron Smith Levin. Let's do a full overview of Scientology. Its ideas, how it operates, how it wields its power and influence. And let's start at the very basics." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "What is Scientology? Scientology is a belief system created by L. Ron Hubbard that does fundamentally believe that we are all immortal spiritual beings called Thetans, that we have native God-like potential, that there is nothing more powerful in the universe than a Thetan. So God-like is quite literal here. And that through various decisions Thetans have made, they have fallen away from their native God-like power, fallen down to a state where most Thetans aren't even aware that they are Thetans, aren't even aware that they ever have lived before or have these powers. And that Thetans are now in a state where they're trapped in bodies, trapped here on Earth, trapped in this prison of a physical universe, trapped on this prison of a planet." }, { "from": "human", "value": "And that only Scientology can restore a Thean to its native state. Are these multiple beings? Is there one Thean inside of me that's trapped in this prison? Well the Thean would be you. The Thean would be me. The Thean is you. But I'm presumably limited in some fundamental way. So this Thean that is me is limited." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So there's like eight billion Theans on the planet. There's one primary Thean animating each body. Later in Scientology you learn there's actually like tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of like sick, unconscious, half-dead Theans stuck to you that are now an additional cause of problems for you. But fundamentally at the lower levels, the non-confidential levels, there's just one Thean per body." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean it's an interesting idea. I just would like to kind of explore the philosophy of that. So there's a being that's all-powerful, that's immortal. And its projection, its manifestation on this Earth is fundamentally limited. And you're trying to, the process of Scientology is the process of letting go of those limitations. You know that's an interesting idea. I mean a lot of religions have this kind of idea that there's not just religions but like we have the capacity as human beings to do, to achieve greatness in all kinds of ways. And that's the question we have with our cognitive abilities, we start with an embryo and build up into this organism and like this world of opportunities before us, what are we capable of? And the idea that we're capable of almost anything is a really powerful one and there's a lot of religions, there's a lot of philosophies, there's a lot of advice, self-help that kind of explore those ideas. And so it seems like with Scientology the application of this religious philosophy means that we're limited and we have to break through those limitations and there's a process to" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "break through those limitations. That would be correct. So what can make it challenging to adequately and completely describe Scientology in the beginning is what Scientologists believe actually changes as they progress further into or further up in Scientology. So the explanation I've given is pretty consistent with what you would get at the lowest levels, you're a thetan. I'm a thetan. Everyone's a thetan and we have a reactive mind. L. Ron Hubbard would say the reactive mind is a collection of these recordings, mental recordings of any moments of pain and unconsciousness you ever had in your life. It's like the subconscious mind, it's always recording in moments of pain and unconsciousness, and that these are called, these recordings, L. Ron Hubbard called them n-grams. Now, when L. Ron Hubbard first wrote Dianetics in 1950, this was before Scientology came along a couple years later, right? So in 1950, when he wrote Dianetics, it wasn't a spiritual endeavor, it was supposed to be a mental health, a science of mental health. So as of that time, the earliest engram you could have was the incident of birth. Being born was an engram. And technically in Dianetics, he said you could have prenatal engrams, like when you're still in the womb. But there was no concept of past lives as of 1950 version of Dianetics, right? And so the idea there was that the reactive mind is essentially a stimulus response mechanism created through evolution millions of years ago to protect the individual from things that would harm them. In other words, things that would bring about pain and unconsciousness. So you have these recordings of things that hurt you, create a pain and unconsciousness. And in present time, these things will react upon you in a way to cause you to avoid similar things reacting upon you in a subconscious, unconscious way. So the reactive mind protects you from the trauma that is inside your subconscious mind. Yes. And the idea is we've now as human beings evolved to a state where it no longer serves us beneficially, it only serves us negatively. This was Hubbard's theory. And he said so you can get rid of these engrams by basically recalling them and going over them again and again using Dianetics auditing therapy. And if you get back to the moment of birth and erase the earliest engram, all the other subsequent engrams on the chain would vanish. Oh, nice. So there's a chain. Earlier, similar, earlier, similar, earlier, similar, earlier, similar. Okay. So that gives you a pretty good understanding of how Elrond Hubbard thought of the mind because that carries on, has applicability later on in Scientology." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, that's a pretty powerful model of the mind. I mean, Freud had similar conceptions that a lot of our traumas are grounded in sort of a poor formulation of sexuality or imperfect formulation of sexuality in early childhood, something like this. And then we're trying to figure out the puzzle of whatever we formed in early childhood. Right." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And it's similar, similar kind of. It is similar. It's probably what Hubbard took it from. In the early days of Dianetics, before he decided psychiatry was evil, he actually credited" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Sigmund Freud with some of the shoulders he was standing on in writing Dianetics. So he still admired psychiatry at that time. So that's an interesting moment of Dianetics. So what else? You mentioned Dianetics. Auditing was there too." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So if we just, before Scientology, what are the ideas that formed what we know as Dianetics? As I've just described, that is the fundamental. That is pretty much the nuts and bolts of Dianetics. Was it applied? Was it applied often? Oh yeah, no, that's what Dianetics in the early days was all about. It was just auditing. Auditing is the process of the one on one counseling, recall a moment of pain and unconsciousness, run through the angrem over and over and over again, find something earlier similar. That is Dianetics auditing. One of the main things that changed with Scientology is that birth or prenatal angrams were no longer the earliest angrams on the chain. The idea is you have to get the earliest ang clinic on the chain for the later ones to blow, which is a race. And so, but all of a sudden now, with the addition of an immortal spiritual being into the equation, well now the earliest incident could be trillions of years ago in other galaxies" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and universes. That is, other universes, so before the origin of this universe. Yes. Is there a model of physics integrated in any of this?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "No, oh yeah. The model is, you have the physical universe, and then above that you have the theta universe. So we used the word thetan earlier. in Scientology, they'll use the word theta. Theta is just basically Satan power, Thetans collectively. So Hubbard would say you have the theta universe, which is senior to the physical universe and creates the physical universe. And remember, I said, I said native godlike potentials. So when I'm talking about the god who created the earth, we're just like, Scientologists don't believe in a god, but we'll get into that later. We're talking about just creating universes. Like just think like matrix, like just when I say creating universe, essentially just creating different Thetan simulations." }, { "from": "human", "value": "But it sounds like a little bit more like the ideas of Plato, which is there's these platonic forms, there's abstract forms that are bigger, more general than our particular reality here. And those forms are used to construct the reality." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Well, I grew up in a cult, so I'm not familiar with the works of Plato." }, { "from": "human", "value": "You can't use that as an excuse for everything. I would like to, you know, non jokingly steel man the case because a lot of philosophies, a lot of religions, a lot of even scientific endeavors are a little bit full of uncertainty. You can call it bullshit, but you're on sturdy ground because we're surrounded by mystery. And you have to take these ideas somewhat seriously and see where those ideas go wrong. This happens with communism, this happens with capitalism. These ideas sound beautiful in their ideal forms, and then they somehow go wrong and some go more wrong than others. And so I don't think sort of, it's easy to sort of caricature and make fun of the ideas. I think if we take them seriously, you'll start to understand like when you're in it, it was serious. It can be very convincing. It's, you know, the devil is going to be a charismatic person. He's not going to be a caricature, a ridiculous person. So that helps us understand which ideas will sound appealing, but will become dangerous." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "I totally agree. In fact, it's one of the thrusts I have on my channel is wanting to talk about Scientology in a way that would actually resonate with current Scientologists, not just resonate with former Scientologists. I want people who are still in to be able to hear how I talk about it" } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "and go, wow, he's being really fair and really accurate. He's not just a hater. He's not just a hater. If you look at, let's take one of the worst places on Earth, there's North Korea, you have Kim Jong-Un, and the reality is there's a lot of citizens of that nation that deeply love the leader because they've grew up in that way. I mean, through fear, through all kinds of manipulation, through propaganda and so on, they're not allowed to love members of their own family. They're not allowed to have romantic love. They're only allowed to have love for the leader. And to reach those people, you have to empathize with the fact that in their eyes, in some sense, this is a great man, this is a god, a messianic figure. You can't just make fun of the ridiculousness of the situation, this pudgy person waltzing around, creating propaganda, like how's this? With a funny haircut. With a funny haircut. Like it's so easy, Hitler too, to make fun of, to make a caricature of the person. But this is a real person, a real person that influenced the minds of millions of people. In the case of Hitler, you know, tens of millions of people and created a huge amount of suffering, not because of the caricature version, but because he was a charismatic leader. He was somebody that people deeply, deeply loved. And that just over time, I mean, with the abuse of any kind of ideology, this happens over and over. And so it's interesting because Scientology is so close to the core of what is America because so many Americans are involved with it. So it's interesting to study the beauty and the power of the ideas that underlie it and where things go wrong." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Yeah. And I'll just say it's interesting to note, you would never get a representative of the Church of Scientology to sit down and have a conversation with you and even be as fair and accurate about Scientology" }, { "from": "human", "value": "as I'm going to be, which is noteworthy. Do you honestly deeply believe that's the case? There's not going to be a high level official" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "that would sit down for a conversation?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "No. I disagree with you. I hope you're right. Because I think that given the current dynamics of what's happening, I think in order to say, from their perspective, in order to save the Church of Scientology, they have to be transparent and authentic, basically steal men their case, but better. You would think so. Well, we'll talk about the other ways you could do that, which is the manipulation through propaganda, through control media and all that kind of stuff." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "They paint themselves into a corner of not being able to send a representative out into the world to speak honestly about it, because you're literally not allowed to. So when faced, if you're just sitting down with an entertainment journalist, a representative might be able to fudge their way through an interview, but sitting down for a long-form format interview with someone who is going to ask them about Xenu and the body faitons and Leah Remini and Lisa McPherson, that's a no-go zone. So I'm representing why it will never happen, but shit, I would tune in for that interview." }, { "from": "human", "value": "I mean, I hope you do get someone. I hope you do get someone. You don't think David Miscavige would sit down" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "for an interview?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "I would love to be wrong. You know, in general, journalists, in these kinds of situations can be, can attack in a way that doesn't empathize and doesn't come from a place of deep knowledge and understanding, and I think it's possible to have serious conversations with people like that in an empathetic way, but it's also in a challenging way. I think there's a huge amount of trust required, and obviously for a very secretive organization," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "the amount of trust, yes, might be too much required. Anyone over there, if they've done their homework, knows you're gonna be as fair as anyone in the world's going to be, and yet, there's simply things they're not allowed to talk about, and they're not even allowed to say I'm not allowed to talk about it." }, { "from": "human", "value": "So that's a fundamental part of the Church of Scientology is the secrecy. So that's what you're trained as you go up" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "through the ranks is secrecy, secrecy. It's not even a matter of training. It's that there's an entire, the entire upper half of Scientology's bridge is simply confidential. And I never even did those levels when I was in Scientology. I didn't learn what Scientologists actually believe on those upper levels until after I got out of Scientology" }, { "from": "human", "value": "and I was freaking born and raised in it. Let's go there, let's go to your personal story." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "So you've spent 30 years in Scientology?" }, { "from": "human", "value": "Yeah, I was four years old when my mom got in. And then about seven years ago, got out, and you're on what YouTube channel now," }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "and you're an educator? So I was four years old when my mom got introduced to Scientology. And she got in really fast, really quick. So I was 12 years old when I was taken out of school and started officially full-time working for Scientology. Okay, so in various capacities, I worked from the ages of 12 to the age of 26. Okay, so, and then I was 34 when I officially parted ways with Scientology, which was really more them officially parting ways with me, but we can get in all that later." }, { "from": "human", "value": "That's just kind of how Scientology does it." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "And what do you do now in terms of Scientology? So now I run, growing up in Scientology, the YouTube channel, but what I primarily do is I help run an organization that helps people who are escaping from Scientology. I'm the vice president of the Aftermath Foundation. And we created the foundation after the television show, Leah Remini, Scientology and the Aftermath. And there was such an outpouring of support from non-scientologists all over the world. What can we do to help people leave Scientology? That we decided to create a foundation, and it's been incredibly successful. We've helped people escape from all regions and echelons of Scientology. We've accomplished, what we've accomplished is far beyond what we actually envisioned would be possible." } ]

[ { "from": "human", "value": "It's been a huge success. So we'll talk about the negative aspect, the abuses of power, but let's just explore the ideas a little bit more. So the public facing three fundamental truths of Scientology, maybe correct me if I'm wrong. Man is an immortal spiritual being, like we said with Thetans. His experience extends well beyond a single lifetime. So infinite memory backwards. His capabilities are unlimited, even if not presently realized." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "The capabilities are unlimited. So that when I say God-like, I really just mean Thanos, like unlimited. Scientologists don't believe in a God. So when I say God-like, I just mean the most powerful entity, the creator, the prime mover unmoved, except we are all that. A Thetan in Scientology, A Thetan has no position in space or time. A Thetan does not actually exist in the physical universe. It might choose to locate itself in the physical universe, right? And then forget that it made that decision and then sort of get caught and trapped in the physical universe. But that once that Thetan is restored to its native powers, everything you see here in the physical universe is just a Thetan playing a game, like literally, we are in a simulation right now of some Thetan. So like physics doesn't have to make sense when we're talking about it this way. Like technically, you're A Thean, I'm a Thean, we're here, This could also all just be another thetan's game. The thetan's all the way down. Yeah, it's just thetan's everywhere," }, { "from": "human", "value": "thetan's all comes down to the thetan. Is there an idea of a god? Because I read there is a kind of, there is a sense of a supreme being. Is that basically the thetan that's at the core at the bottom of it all? Yes." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Not defined, undefined. Correct. Scientology has this concept of the dynamics, Elrin Hubbard breaks life into a different dynamics. And the dynamic meaning of thrust towards survival. So he would say, you know, the first dynamic is you yourself. Second dynamic is your family. Third dynamic is any other group that you're a part of other than your family. Fourth dynamic is all humankind. The fifth dynamic is plant and animal life, all non-human life. Sixth dynamic is the physical world. Seventh dynamic is sort of like spirituality collectively, thetans, us as thetans. And the eighth dynamic, Elrin Hubbard says Scientology doesn't deal with the eighth dynamic, but we recognize that people have this idea of a supreme being, and so Scientology says you can call the eighth dynamic the supreme being dynamic, but we call it infinity, just the allness of everything without having to define it. And then they sort of do a little dance and they're like science-ology, the purpose of Scientology is to get you to the point where you have your own understandings or realizations about the nature of the eighth dynamic, we don't tell you what you have to believe about that. And technically speaking that is true. Technically speaking that is true. There's no point in Scientology where they sit you down and say you're not required to revoke your belief in a supreme being. It's just that everything in Scientology is inconsistent with a belief in the supreme being. You can still find Scientologists who through cognitive dissonance will tell you they believe in a supreme being." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Mostly they're lying to you. How is this inconsistent with the supreme being?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Because like Tatans could- Because Tatans have created everything." }, { "from": "human", "value": "Not God. Okay, so, Tatans created, they're also a creative force not just the force that runs everything. But can't those be just the fingertips of a God?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Sure. The only way you could reconcile a supreme being is if you say a single supreme being created all theta, like the spiritual big bang. But that's not what most people think when they" }, { "from": "human", "value": "talk about God. They're talking about a creator of the physical universe. There's no theta." }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "Right. I mean, even as I've described Scientology so far, none of what I've said is something I even subject to ridicule. This is pretty common sense stuff, actually. I mean, if you believe in spirituality or spirits at all, there's nothing I've described so far that's crazy. Believing in past lives isn't particularly unique or special. The fact that Scientology does this little dance of pretending to believe in a God, I mean, it's even like a PR line. Scientology representatives will tell you you can be a Christian and be a Scientologist. Let me tell you what, Christians don't believe in past lives, and lives on other galaxies and planets and universes. But, Scientology knows that. Scientology knows you can't be a Christian and be a Scientology, but they will say" }, { "from": "human", "value": "that. It's just an example of sort of the fundamental baked in dishonesty. Because it's so important to Scientology on the organization level to have tax exempt status. I wonder how do you, do you know the process of what it takes to prove that an organization is a religion?" }, { "from": "gpt", "value": "while going through that process with the IRS... For the second time, by the way, Scientology actually had tax exemption in the early days and the IRS pulled it, and then they got it back in 1993. While going through that process again, the IRS actually took issue with the fact that Scientology was claiming you could be a Scientologist and a member of another religion. The IRS actually said, pump the brakes there, if you're gonna say that, we're gonna say you're not a religion. And they actually put in writing to the IRS. No, no, no, no, no, that's not what we meant. That's not what we meant. We meant in the beginning, you can be both," } ]